Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 21:44:06 GMT
Not only was it a binary choice about leaving or remaining in the EU, it was completely free and fair, and no more people voted on the basis of what was written on a bus, than voted because of the threat of immediate recession and mass unemployment. And no, it was nothing to do with the Russians. Thanks Barney, now that's cleared up, please please please please can Admin banish this thread to the non Football threads once and for all? The thing is bringbackjay, the 3 very worthy threads you started, managed 9 pages between them. This single thread already has 105 pages (God knows how many individual posts) and still going strong. The more you respond the more the thread prospers. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 22:11:52 GMT
I agree with Sword. NWS the best thing you can do is to make the current situation work for the next generation. Staying in was as much of a gamble as coming out of the EU. The difference is we now have only ourselves to blame if it goes tits up but at least we can vote out the politicians if they let us down - something we could not do to the EU bureaucrats. "Oh and I heard an interview with Peter Wilding recently (look him up). He said that he found that we were a powerful and influential voice at the very top table of the EU. Not quite the narrative we got at home was it." I have heard this said before but no one has been able to give me examples of what our powerful voice achieved. It did not change the CAP or the ridiculous migration of the bureaucrats at enormous expense every month. Can you give any examples of wins we made with our influence NWS? I will repeat again, because I don't think people seem to grasp this or see my constant complaints about, what I see as, the forthcoming stupidity, as waiting for things to go wrong so I can say 'I told you so'. I will not be actively supporting things going wrong. That is plain ridiculous. Things going wrong here is things going wrong for me and my family. My constant complaints are about how there is this continuing cognitive dissonance around Brexit. In 2016, people voted for a better future because that is what they were being promised. As reality hit home (and German carmakers didn't rescue them etc etc) this morphed into different claims until we got to the point where people were, in droves, saying they didn't care if it meant job losses or their business going bust or loss of freedoms for them and their children. It really was quite remarkable. In 2018 there was uproar over Theresa May's withdrawal agreement. Boris Johnson described it as 'worse than our current deal' while brexiters queued up to denounce it as 'not really brexit'. Fast forward to 2019 and pretty much the same deal, although possibly worse for us, is hailed as a great success. It's utter delusion with a seemingly large percentage of the population intent on causing us great economic damage just to say they won. Quite delusional to me. On the subject of the powerful voice, I am just quoting what the man who was in the centre of things in Brussels and reporting back to David Cameron said (Peter Wilding is credited as the man who coined the term 'brexit' BTW). Off the top of my head I would point you towards some of the opt outs we managed to achieve down the years such as not having to be in the Euro (so we have control over our money??) or not having to adhere to the working time directive or budget rebate. Even David Cameron's supposed flimsy deal managed to get an agreement that 'ever more integration' would be specifically excluded for the UK although brexiters will still deny this. You should note that a lot of time we did not hear about our influence because it happened behind the scenes (which is what Peter Wilding saw) and often we had voted in favour of what was introduced. Here is a fact check article of claims, which won't make things totally clear but is a little helpful. fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/ . You will note the bit about how we may have influenced things behind the scenes before they went to votes. This is what Peter Wilding talked about. He said that far from being isolated, we were respected and seen as having great expertise. While we are asking questions of each other...which EU law did you hate the most? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 22:58:42 GMT
In response to a variety of facts or intellectual viewpoints I have put to you, you have responded by telling me that 'I lost get over it', to jump off Beachy Head and to 'chill out and wait and see what happens'. You have also made the spurious claim that a load of us want things to go badly so we can say we told you so, despite the fact that I have constantly said I hope I am apologising and saying I am wrong. I have little choice but to wait and see what happens now and rest assured I will be part of the backlash if we are royally screwed over. I'm not sure how I chill out when I watch people who can't or won't confront reality vote for puppetmasters that will wreck their lives, and mine, while telling them it was someone else's fault. Don't forget it took less than 24 hours before we had the claim, on here, that Brexit could get wrecked by remainers that won't make it work. Sorry but Brexit will go wrong by itself not because I think it is a stupid idea. But I didnt vote for them. You are only arguing your point of view ,what about all the other contributors who are dissing our future before our future has arrived are you speaking for them as well? I refuse to worry about things I have no control over and I just cannot understand why you go to certain lengths to do completely the opposite. You worrying about things, intellectually explaining things, giving me facts that may or may not be right will still change nothing so why do it? You are worrying about your children's future well that is something worth worrying about but maybe it should be them worrying about yours because you'll drive yourself insane if you keep your actions up. Your future maybe in a rubber room all because you keep worrying ,and worrying and worrying some more. If you wont chill out for your own sake then do it for your kids. So you didn't vote for Mr Johnson and his £350m on the side of the bus etc? Can you point me towards a fact that is incorrect? People may have been dissing our future because they believe it does not look good. If you see a warning sign saying there is a potential for severe flooding in an area, you don't just plough on regardless, you avoid it or try to take some evasive action. These people are sounding a warning sign not actively promoting the flooding. You keep pushing this worry line on me, as though I am sat at home all day panicking about leaving the EU. I assure you I'm not. I go to work, I enjoy time with my children (I was at the O2 last night where they performed in the Young Voices choir). I am interested in the matters getting discussed in this thread and like to bring enlightenment to people if I have the facts to do so and receive enlightenment from people if they have the facts to do so. I look at things as best I can because that allows me to make decisions on votes based on some knowledge rather than what some gadge perpetuating a lie on social media says. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 23:18:51 GMT
"the referendum wasn't actually about leaving the EU"  ? Errrr………..I know I'm going to regret this, but what was it about then, as Im pretty sure that's what the question was on the voting paper I filled in. Surely even "Mr Facts" NWS will agree that the 2016 referendum was, indeed, a vote on remaining in, or leaving, the EU? Or are we now going to try to re-write history because it isn't what we wanted? Not only was it a binary choice about leaving or remaining in the EU, it was completely free and fair, and no more people voted on the basis of what was written on a bus, than voted because of the threat of immediate recession and mass unemployment. And no, it was nothing to do with the Russians. People didn't vote about what was written on the side of the bus. It's a shame Dominic Cummings doesn't agree with you. www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/Interestingly he notes how immigration was a key component as well. JDL is bang on with what he said. People voted to stick it in the eye of the elite (although it was just a different elite that wanted them to do this). They were angry about the effects of the 2008 crash and how they paid - through PAYE - while rich people responsible still got richer. They were worried by immigration (always denied but true) and the scaremongering stories. They were worried by the Euro crisis (even though we were not in the Euro). Vote Leave told a story based on emotion not fact and Cameron/Osbourne presented a ridiculous campaign (I think Cameron's aim was out and it was mission accomplished for him). Dominic Cummings agrees with most of what I say in this wordy article. blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/Now I would love to know why people believe that the rich mob in the city are going to change their ways for the good of the country once we are out of the EU. For one they won't be beholden to the EU anti-tax avoidance directive. In short this, along with shunting environmental and workers rights into non-binding parts of agreements (as Alex did with his withdrawal agreement) we could be in for more tax avoidance at the top and lower levels of rights at the bottom of the pile. I hope I am wrong but I have zero faith in Alex Johnson. |
|
|
|
Post by distantfan on Feb 6, 2020 1:47:39 GMT
A close family member voted leave because they couldn't get their child into the local high school. Their vote had absolutely zero to do with the EU except they believed that if there was $350m a week for the NHS then there'd be plenty of extra funding for state schools. I spoke to them about this a couple of days after the referendum. Thanks to comments by Farage post referendum they already realised they had been fooled. They also already realised that a lot of people we knew who had strong views on 'foreigners', which included English born and raised non-white people, were starting to confidently express their 'go home' views.
Brexit is a fact, the economic changes will start slowly at first because we still have regulatory alignment, but the changes will come. Like many remainers I hope we are wrong about declining food standards, large manufacturing firms leaving the UK, difficulties staffing the health service etc. I hope that the Brexit leaders were right. It's just that when I look at and listen to them I can't help thinking they exactly the type of privileged bullshit artists that I have never trusted in my life. They're the type of people who'd sell your forgetful nan a timeshare in Spain or convince her to include them in her will. Because it's all about them and how they can con others in believing their lies just long enough to rip you off. I feel sick to the core when I think that Farage, Johnson and co have been able to con the very people who will most likely be worst affected by the upcoming changes.
The EU is far from perfect but it was a brake on the cruelties of successive Tory governments since the 1970s. Now they are free to do what they want to the people they despise most: mugs like all of us.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2020 5:46:41 GMT
But I didnt vote for them. You are only arguing your point of view ,what about all the other contributors who are dissing our future before our future has arrived are you speaking for them as well? I refuse to worry about things I have no control over and I just cannot understand why you go to certain lengths to do completely the opposite. You worrying about things, intellectually explaining things, giving me facts that may or may not be right will still change nothing so why do it? You are worrying about your children's future well that is something worth worrying about but maybe it should be them worrying about yours because you'll drive yourself insane if you keep your actions up. Your future maybe in a rubber room all because you keep worrying ,and worrying and worrying some more. If you wont chill out for your own sake then do it for your kids. So you didn't vote for Mr Johnson and his £350m on the side of the bus etc? Can you point me towards a fact that is incorrect? People may have been dissing our future because they believe it does not look good. If you see a warning sign saying there is a potential for severe flooding in an area, you don't just plough on regardless, you avoid it or try to take some evasive action. These people are sounding a warning sign not actively promoting the flooding. You keep pushing this worry line on me, as though I am sat at home all day panicking about leaving the EU. I assure you I'm not. I go to work, I enjoy time with my children (I was at the O2 last night where they performed in the Young Voices choir). I am interested in the matters getting discussed in this thread and like to bring enlightenment to people if I have the facts to do so and receive enlightenment from people if they have the facts to do so. I look at things as best I can because that allows me to make decisions on votes based on some knowledge rather than what some gadge perpetuating a lie on social media says. I voted to leave the EU but I didnt vote for BOJO unless of course their was some small print on the bottom of the ballot paper that I didnt read. As for your facts, well I dont see why you would make them up but alas I am not sad enough or interested enough to check them. I would rather read a good book than have my head stuck in the 'economist' or trawling every newspaper looking for political comment. I would rather watch a good film than the tedious and boring tv programmes dedicated to politics. If ,in the real world, I am talking to someone who I believe is lying or trying to con me then I walk away from them but you dont ,you listen to their lies ,you trawl newspapers looking for more lies ,watch tv looking for lies,lies and more lies. This is not only sad but eventually it gets to the point when you cant tell truth from lies because I know the things I have told you are the truth and yet you call me a liar, and trust me I abhor liars. Now I am not saying that these politicians aren't lying but surely politicians have been doing that for centuries,it is nothing new. Politicians have been stabbing each other in the back for centuries, it is nothing new but you sensationalize it like it is something that has only happened in the last few years,it hasn't. Which brings me back to my main point and that is that you and I are just 2 people out of millions,2 people with different views but with one important thing in common, we cannot change ANYTHING,so why get so involved like you do ,its almost like you have OCD but are not aware of it. I just think, as a friend, you need to lighten up a bit, reign in your obsession before it harms you irreparably. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2020 5:58:46 GMT
Brexit Derangement Syndrome. The issue seems to have driven some Rejoiners, literally mad.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2020 10:22:35 GMT
But I didnt vote for them. You are only arguing your point of view ,what about all the other contributors who are dissing our future before our future has arrived are you speaking for them as well? I refuse to worry about things I have no control over and I just cannot understand why you go to certain lengths to do completely the opposite. You worrying about things, intellectually explaining things, giving me facts that may or may not be right will still change nothing so why do it? You are worrying about your children's future well that is something worth worrying about but maybe it should be them worrying about yours because you'll drive yourself insane if you keep your actions up. Your future maybe in a rubber room all because you keep worrying ,and worrying and worrying some more. If you wont chill out for your own sake then do it for your kids. So you didn't vote for Mr Johnson and his £350m on the side of the bus etc? Can you point me towards a fact that is incorrect? People may have been dissing our future because they believe it does not look good. If you see a warning sign saying there is a potential for severe flooding in an area, you don't just plough on regardless, you avoid it or try to take some evasive action. These people are sounding a warning sign not actively promoting the flooding. You keep pushing this worry line on me, as though I am sat at home all day panicking about leaving the EU. I assure you I'm not. I go to work, I enjoy time with my children (I was at the O2 last night where they performed in the Young Voices choir). I am interested in the matters getting discussed in this thread and like to bring enlightenment to people if I have the facts to do so and receive enlightenment from people if they have the facts to do so. I look at things as best I can because that allows me to make decisions on votes based on some knowledge rather than what some gadge perpetuating a lie on social media says. So one of the major successes of our influence in the EU was to negotiate an opt out. That is exactly what Brexit achieved. "In terms of the total volume of laws passed, the proportion of times the UK government has been on the “losing side” is small at about 2% since 1999. In recent years the UK has been losing a lot more votes, and now loses a higher proportion of votes than other members." so what influence we did have is declining, this is especially true when looking at the attempts to curb EU excesses. Source EU Facts fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/ |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2020 16:35:20 GMT
So you didn't vote for Mr Johnson and his £350m on the side of the bus etc? Can you point me towards a fact that is incorrect? People may have been dissing our future because they believe it does not look good. If you see a warning sign saying there is a potential for severe flooding in an area, you don't just plough on regardless, you avoid it or try to take some evasive action. These people are sounding a warning sign not actively promoting the flooding. You keep pushing this worry line on me, as though I am sat at home all day panicking about leaving the EU. I assure you I'm not. I go to work, I enjoy time with my children (I was at the O2 last night where they performed in the Young Voices choir). I am interested in the matters getting discussed in this thread and like to bring enlightenment to people if I have the facts to do so and receive enlightenment from people if they have the facts to do so. I look at things as best I can because that allows me to make decisions on votes based on some knowledge rather than what some gadge perpetuating a lie on social media says. So one of the major successes of our influence in the EU was to negotiate an opt out. That is exactly what Brexit achieved. "In terms of the total volume of laws passed, the proportion of times the UK government has been on the “losing side” is small at about 2% since 1999. In recent years the UK has been losing a lot more votes, and now loses a higher proportion of votes than other members." so what influence we did have is declining, this is especially true when looking at the attempts to curb EU excesses. Source EU Facts fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/So what have we opted out of? Just to point out that I gave you answer off the top of my head and the article you quoted did say that the influence we exerted was not always visible. As you like the figures. We 'lost' 76 out of c2500 times. Now I answered your question but in your haste you forgot mine. Which EU law did you hate the most? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2020 18:22:23 GMT
It had a good run. 105 pages must be some kind of record. But I'm glad this discussion has been moved where it belongs.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2020 12:11:52 GMT
|
|
