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Post by moley on Jan 20, 2013 17:54:58 GMT
I don't think the old vs new fan debate is particularly useful, we are all fans when it comes down to it
This club has a lot of history, some of it traumatic (in football terms at least), but the past is important in understanding why we are where we are today.
As one of the few hundred so called die-hards I can categorically state we all spent years hoping for all these new faces to join us, but to advance Maidstone United, not so that we could make them feel inferior.
I will keep banging on about our history, because it belongs to all of us "old" or "new" fans
As for Jim Thompson, probably best I keep my opinions to myself
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Post by Adie Ohruru on Jan 20, 2013 18:08:33 GMT
Well done to Barmingstone for bringing up the elephant in the room.
For what it's worth (speaking as a supporter of 7 years) I feel it is very much a vocal minority and not a view shared by 99% of 'old supporters'.
That said I have grown exasperated to the point where I have spent a couple of recent games (Hythe and CDG) away from the old crowd and have enjoyed it much more, so I can understand how some newer fans might feel...!
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Post by islandstone on Jan 20, 2013 18:31:38 GMT
mr moley has hit the nail on the head. we'll all have differant opinions but at the end of the day we are all united. mr samb, ive thought of a trial separation from the "die hards".
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Post by headstone on Jan 20, 2013 19:10:32 GMT
My view is firstly that JT (the old one) was over confident in his influence in the town and on the Council, and secondly that he applied for far too much in his application, what with cinema, hotel etc, he wanted a money making mall, the fans just wanted a new ground. But you can see that a new ground on its own wouldn't have generated income, or indeed any profit at all (but don't tell the present owners).
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pete
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Post by pete on Jan 20, 2013 19:49:05 GMT
As someone who started watching the Stones in the 70's I always think that JT gets a bad press. Yes, he sold the old ground without a new one to go into and in hindsight this was an obvious mistake . Yes, he presided over the demise of the old club but I do think that he was really a victim of bad timing more than anything. He wanted to develop Woodcut farm for a new ground but (I suspect) this wasn't his first choice. I think Hermitage Lane was probably his preferred option but as this is just into Tonbridge & Malling council area, once they (shamefully in my opinion, given the number of supporters in Aylesford, Ditton, Leybourne, Larkfield etc) said they would never give permission in their area for a ground he was forced to look to the east of the town for a site.
Woodcut farm was and still is going to be developed at some stage - the NIMBYS won't stop it forever. The football landscape was very different in the late 80's/early 90's. We were still affected by the hooliganism problem at all levels and it was very easy for the people that didnt want a ground to convince councillors that there would be hoards of marauding thugs running through Hollingbourne & Bearsted every week. If we were applying for permission there now I wonder what might happen? Yes, people would still object but it would certainly be a better option for them than KIG!
All politicians of course say what they think their constituents want to hear. I was living in the town centre at the time and wrote to my (Lib Dem) councillor asking her to support the application for Woodcut Farm. She replied to me saying that it had her total support but when it came to the vote she abstained! If JT had a similar response from people he spoke to he could well have been led down the garden path & then dumped when it came to that fateful night at the Corn Exchange.
Overall, obviously he made mistakes but he made the club a serious non league team rather than a non entity and it must not be forgotten what he helped acheive for non league football in general (automatic promotion to football league).
Before anyone asks - I didnt know him personally but I don't think all of the negative opinions are right.
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Post by barmingstone on Jan 20, 2013 19:55:25 GMT
My thoughts on this - for what it's worth.
Jim Thompson / Old ground /new ground
I gather that an above market offer was originally put in by MFI (or developer - not sure exact details), which was accepted. This was subsequently chipped along the way, not leaving much at the end.
Over confident and over ambitious new ground would be granted permission. Think it was the right concept just wrong place. Too isolated, even before other factors were considered.
The hope must have been that this would become an attractive asset to a speculator/developer because if JT could have delivered a scheme on this scale then he surely could have sustained the club even afterwards.
Old ground didn't receive support from football league. Unless the ground was materially unsafe the club should've been given more time to upgrade and comply. Think this must've been fundamental to even consider selling in the first place.
Don't think JT deserves the stick he still gets in some quarters. Whilst there's no doubts mistakes were made along the way, this was in different times, plus football was unfashionable back then! As I understand he was a wealthy (within reason) man, and left a lot less wealthier. He certainly didn't asset strip the club by The sounds of it. If anything he was turned over when selling London Rd.
Fans
I wouldn't have a problem if the longstanding fans got together and created an atmosphere on match days, then encouraged and educated new fans to join in with them.
Current impression is that there rather isolate themselves. This creates a state of limbo with a sterile atmosphere as the consequence. Jay & Shaun have recently stated that a decent atmosphere would help create a fortress situation, but at the moment teams are enjoying coming and playing in front of 1500+ people than they're use to. This doesn't help the team which should be everyone ambition - old or new!
Rather hypocritical considering my opening post but think we all have to look to the future.
Future
It's amazing have a 'home' team to support, and thoroughly look forward to every home game. It still amazes me every game. The owners deserve a lot of credit, and if rumours are true are already looking at future development.
Whilst results could've been better I have never left the GS without being entertained and enjoying the game. The team & Jay needs everyones support for the remaining push. Everyone should get behind them 100%.
Gallagher Stadium
Actually think we'll outgrow the ground at some point due to restricted land capacity (3G aside - think the FA will buckle when put under pressure. Only way they make a decision). Great problem to have.
Potential sites could include Mote Park (with support from MBC) and even London Rd if bigger - more units will become empty, and thus obsolete. Redevelopment could be a potential in 10 years or so considering nature of retail warehousing has changed etc.
JT was correct that football grounds need to be daily use venues (mixture of leisure, corporate, commercial, educational and social aspects) and also accessible through various means.
Clubhouse is a nice venue, but needs to be softened I feel. Understand that it needs to fit in with academy and function side of things, but something sympathetic can surely be found.
Anyway new poster so this is more of a dump of thoughts in one go....
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Post by stewart on Jan 20, 2013 20:12:43 GMT
Jim Thompson was a bit blinkered in his love for maidstone united. The woodcut farm development was far to advanced for maidstone council and they were obviously frightened by it. Everything that was planned for woodcut has now been put in place in the town somewhere (fremlin walk, multiple health clubs, lost count of the hotels). The move to dartford was always going to end in disaster what with the lack of advertising and loss of support. Jim did all he could to keep the old club flying but the outlay to bring watling st up to conference standard and then league standard took its toll on club finances. Also when you look on those old vids and see jim running around in a flash shiny roller, at leats 40% was fibreglass filler and a good respray, (I was responsible for most of the filler). Jim had a dream that was killed off by maidstone council, Paul Bowden Brown had a dream he couldn't financially deliver, Oliver Ash Terry Casey Pat Gallagher and Bill Williams have taken the dream and made it reality. Maidstone United now plays football at the gallagher Stadium in James Whatman Way, Stuff the old support new support, we're in it together
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Post by toonarmy on Jan 20, 2013 20:13:23 GMT
I have just sat and watched a whole load of stuff about Maidstone United on Youtube, thank you Mr Heathside and i have also heard what Jim Thompson was saying and yes i think he thought he was doing the best for the club but ultimately he failed and so did the club, so i can understand there is a lot of resentment and anger levelled at him, rightly or wrongly, i am not going to argue with anybodys opinion as its a free country and we can all raise our points however valid they may or may not seem, I have also sat and listened to some interviews with Paul Bowden Brown and in the newer ones with a very young looking Oliver Ash, I have heard rumours about PBB, but is it true he is banished from the club, again i apologise if i am opening any old wounds here but i am a new fan of the club and am really interested in the history of the old club and also the new club
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 20:33:17 GMT
In response to the first post, it failed because, and this is just my opinion, the council would not allow such a complex to be built which would have been in direct competition for their plans to build lock meadow. They thus voted overwhelmingly against it.
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Post by StonedProf on Jan 20, 2013 20:51:30 GMT
Fans I wouldn't have a problem if the longstanding fans got together and created an atmosphere on match days, then encouraged and educated new fans to join in with them. Current impression is that there rather isolate themselves. This creates a state of limbo with a sterile atmosphere as the consequence. I've heard this kind of thing asserted on here by both old and new fans and I'm wondering if I've been attending the same games as anyone else. Firstly, the long-standing fans do try to create an atmosphere and are usually the only people singing at the Springfield End. Secondly, I haven't seen anyone complaining about new fans joining in with songs - in fact quite the opposite. I have heard people (including me) complaining about a small minority of new fans thinking that questioning the goalkeeper's sexuality at every game is the height of wit, or about people throwing bottles, or as I've said before, one new fan complaining that a group of old fans weren't doing enough to support the team (which was met with a curt "I've been supporting them for the last six years" from me). I would consider all these to be justified complaints and have been aimed only at the individuals involved. As to old fans isolating themselves, it is only natural for people who know each other to stand together, and I don't think that this supposed isolation is any more organised or deliberate than that. At the railway end in particular, the terrace is usually a complete blend of old and new supporters as people stand wherever they can. I've posted before on the sterile atmosphere, but to summarise: it is difficult to get everyone singing together on such a long and narrow terrace; at the Springfield end the atmosphere is diluted because many people stay at the railway end; at the railway end the atmosphere is diluted as people who want to sing are mixed in with those who do not want to sing because the terrace is smaller and they have nowhere else to stand. Gallagher Stadium Actually think we'll outgrow the ground at some point due to restricted land capacity (3G aside - think the FA will buckle when put under pressure. Only way they make a decision). Great problem to have. Potential sites could include Mote Park (with support from MBC) and even London Rd if bigger - more units will become empty, and thus obsolete. Redevelopment could be a potential in 10 years or so considering nature of retail warehousing has changed etc. JT was correct that football grounds need to be daily use venues (mixture of leisure, corporate, commercial, educational and social aspects) and also accessible through various means. Clubhouse is a nice venue, but needs to be softened I feel. Understand that it needs to fit in with academy and function side of things, but something sympathetic can surely be found. Anyway new poster so this is more of a dump of thoughts in one go.... Hope we don't outgrow the ground because there's no way we'd get a better location and poor location will lead to long-term decline as younger and more casual supporters are put off. Maximum potential capacity of the site has been said to be 5,000, 7,000 or 10,000 at various times, and such expansion would likely involve a large terrace at the railway end and a stand on the river side. I can't see us needing more capacity than that. I think Mote Park was tried before JWW, and was rejected. The only way we'd get there is to share with the rugby, and as far as I know their pitches are in use every Saturday, and I doubt we'd get anything much bigger than our current ground anyway. I had thought that London Road might be fitting if retail parks go into decline, although I'd prefer St Peter's Street for the location. I absolutely agree about daily use, and I'm pretty sure the current owners do too. Agree about the clubhouse: a little decor would go a long way. Nothing wrong with brain dumps: that's what half my posts are!
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Post by barmingstone on Jan 20, 2013 20:52:32 GMT
Nigel - was lock meadow a possibility back then? Took 10+ years to deliver in a fairly decent market if so!
Ultimately, I actually think the club are much better off because of our past - everyone appreciates it so much more! Having 'almost' lost it once everyone will be much more focused on retaining a sustainable model now we're back home. Happy days
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Post by barmingstone on Jan 20, 2013 20:58:49 GMT
StonedProf - excellent response. Thanks for enlightening me.
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Post by trolley on Jan 20, 2013 22:26:03 GMT
I must say that i am a bit confused, i have over the last few months bumped into people i have not seen for years at our brand new stadium, they all get the same welcome, great to see you and what do you think of our new gaff, the meet and greet guy on the gate gives everyone a great welcome, its true that many of us have been round for a while, and we will stand together as we have for many years, but i fail to see how this would or has put people off from coming, if you feel that somehow you are being left out come and stand with us, we really are a friendly bunch...
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Post by La femme de Vic Jobson on Jan 21, 2013 8:03:55 GMT
I think the matchday experience is very different from the forum experience. Almost every match has been entertaining and kids are pestering their parents for Stones shirts and scarves and the adults are teaching them some of the songs (which may or may not be a good thing but that's another issue). No thanks to the subject of this thread and you wouldn't know it by coming on here sometimes, but something great is at last happening in the town.
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Post by tim on Jan 21, 2013 9:10:42 GMT
Jim Thompson gave me some of the best days out in my life, cup runs, train journeys even a stroll through the allotments of Watford! How about the fight between Hales and Flanagan? The football league in 10 years said the sign, I think he did it in 12? He made a mistake, and yes it was big, but we enjoyed the ride!
As for the them and us, sorry but for years we played the 'how many' will be get when we come home game. It would seem stupid not to then welcome the newbies
Onwards and upwards!
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