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Post by jdl on Jul 10, 2019 12:05:19 GMT
Brexit won't happen - because it can't happen.
As well as causing huge economic and sociological trauma (most of which will fall on the very people who voted Leave), it will bring the Troubles back in NI and lead to the break-up of the UK. In short, it will be national suicide.
The referendum was called for purely party-political reasons (to get the 'Brexit Bastards' off Cameron's back), no one ever thought it would lead to a Leave victory, so no thought was given to that outcome, or how it could be achieved, or what its consequences would be.
As a result, we are now in a god awful mess, with the country's economy and international standing already seriously damaged, and a population spilt almost 50/50 on passionately held ideological beliefs that mostly didn't even exist 5 years ago. All caused by Tory factionalism.
And to top it all, they are now going to 'solve' it all by allowing a few hundred thousand mainly old, right-wing, white men (many ex-UKIP) to make a careerist, lying, philanderer our next Prime Minister.
What can possibly go wrong?
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Post by 61666 on Jul 10, 2019 14:58:46 GMT
Anyone who hasn't yet done so should check YouTube and the Hitler/Boris rant. Sums up the situation of the time really well.
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Post by nws on Jul 11, 2019 10:42:54 GMT
I think he just counted and offered fact based on that counting. If your vote doesn't count when you don't vote then how can you claim 'will of the country'. Will of the country would need over 50% of people to vote for something. 50% of the country didn't vote for it. The correct sentence should be 'will of those that bothered to vote'. Those were the rules of the referendum, or any election. You could just as easily say fewer than 48% voted to Remain. If you can't be bothered to vote, you're not lumped in with those who make the effort. The only power we possess is our vote, which is why elections and referenda must be implemented. Er...you are arguing a completely different point. I was merely pointing out that you cannot argue 'will of the people' if only 37% of ALL the people wanted it. I will point you towards my sentence that said it was 'will of the people that bothered to vote'. It wasn't an opinion it was merely a statement of fact. If you wish to continue arguing and being wrong then feel free. 'Referenda must be implemented'. Actually, you are both incorrect and correct. There is nothing, legally, to say that this referendum should be implemented because it was not set up as such. This was confirmed by the Gina Miller case ruling. However, I do recognise that it was said prior to the referendum that the result would be respected so on that front, no argument. Although you will of course recognise that a second referendum was also touted. Now, and I do recognise this might be slightly more tricky for you, can you please tell me what exactly was voted for?
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Post by Better things to do in life on Jul 11, 2019 12:33:43 GMT
This is so over complicating things.
The British people voted clearly and their elected representatives haven’t done what they voted for so they have failed their democratic duty. Simples.
Just like a highly paid Ambassador whose only job is to develop good relations between his country and the country he is assigned to and then slags that country off has failed in his diplomatic duties. Simple.
In both examples the culprits needed to be removed but sadly when it come to MPs democracy of the people is now dead as the media and our betters in parliament clearly can override the will of the people as they wish or see fit as clearly they think they know better than the people they owe their jobs too!
We may as well go back 200 years and give the vote only to male llanded gentry as that feels like where we are anyway!
Also didn’t the recent European elections give a fairly clear further indication of voters instructions to our elected representatives? I.e leave now, deal or no deal. Simples.
Which part of WE WANT TO LEAVE do these supposedly better educated supposedly elected supposedly representatives of the people NOT understand?
Sheesh!
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Post by daveu on Jul 11, 2019 13:20:19 GMT
Also didn’t the recent European elections give a fairly clear further indication of voters instructions to our elected representatives? I.e leave now, deal or no deal. Simples. No they didn't. The combined Liberal democrat and Green vote was higher than the combined brexit vote, a clear indication that the electorate has changed its mind. Just because those who were taken in by the lies of Farage, Boris etc. managed to consolidate their vote largely behind one partly doesn't make them the majority.
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Post by Nick on Jul 11, 2019 14:04:16 GMT
Careful daveu. Just listened to Farage on LBC declaring that non brexit backing people in the armed forces and civil service should be 'removed'. It's a changing world and traitors like you could be next for the chop !
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Post by daveu on Jul 11, 2019 14:22:42 GMT
Careful daveu. Just listened to Farage on LBC declaring that non brexit backing people in the armed forces and civil service should be 'removed'. It's a changing world and traitors like you could be next for the chop ! That's Farage's and Boris' vision of democracy for you. Germany in the 30s anyone?
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Post by Better things to do in life on Jul 11, 2019 16:11:32 GMT
Also didn’t the recent European elections give a fairly clear further indication of voters instructions to our elected representatives? I.e leave now, deal or no deal. Simples. No they didn't. The combined Liberal democrat and Green vote was higher than the combined brexit vote, a clear indication that the electorate has changed its mind. Just because those who were taken in by the lies of Farage, Boris etc. managed to consolidate their vote largely behind one partly doesn't make them the majority. But voting Lib Dem or Green wasn't only about a remain vote, but other factors for supporting those parties, whereas a Brexit Party vote was a pretty obvious one issue statement!
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Post by nws on Jul 11, 2019 17:38:36 GMT
This is so over complicating things. The British people voted clearly and their elected representatives haven’t done what they voted for so they have failed their democratic duty. Simples. Just like a highly paid Ambassador whose only job is to develop good relations between his country and the country he is assigned to and then slags that country off has failed in his diplomatic duties. Simple. In both examples the culprits needed to be removed but sadly when it come to MPs democracy of the people is now dead as the media and our betters in parliament clearly can override the will of the people as they wish or see fit as clearly they think they know better than the people they owe their jobs too! We may as well go back 200 years and give the vote only to male llanded gentry as that feels like where we are anyway! Also didn’t the recent European elections give a fairly clear further indication of voters instructions to our elected representatives? I.e leave now, deal or no deal. Simples. Which part of WE WANT TO LEAVE do these supposedly better educated supposedly elected supposedly representatives of the people NOT understand? Sheesh! The trouble is that those of us who are better educated understand that there are a multitude of ways of leaving but when you ask for detail you get less educated and fairly clueless people screaming 'we just want to leave' at you without a scintilla of a clue as to what they are on about. Mrs May's deal was leaving and you screamed about it. I see the constant claim that no deal was what you wanted all along. That was hardly, if ever, mentioned prior to the referendum. In fact, it only started getting mentioned with any force last year when the great deal promised in 2016 failed to materialise. It is complicated. What bit of 45 years of integration will be difficult to unravel do you not get? No you just sit there screeching and complaining without thinking? Incidentally, I would expect an ambassador to be passing the truth back to the UK which is precisely what he did. Maybe you should go after the person who leaked the information. As for going back 200 years. Don't worry, your vote for the policies of JRM is helping that along. You mention democracy. I take it the UK Parliamentary democracy that was so sought after is now not so sought after. I find it strange that the 'will of the people' that is so strongly brexit didn't deliver a stronger mandate for Brexit in 2017. Just remember..."A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy". I leave you to discover who wrote that gem
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Post by nws on Jul 11, 2019 17:42:52 GMT
No they didn't. The combined Liberal democrat and Green vote was higher than the combined brexit vote, a clear indication that the electorate has changed its mind. Just because those who were taken in by the lies of Farage, Boris etc. managed to consolidate their vote largely behind one partly doesn't make them the majority. But voting Lib Dem or Green wasn't only about a remain vote, but other factors for supporting those parties, whereas a Brexit Party vote was a pretty obvious one issue statement! Aaahh. ..so when Farage said that this was like a second referendum he was lying. I find it bizarre that you don't think the resurgence of the Libs is all about their opposition to Brexit. The reality is that no deal Brexit is not supported by a majority hence why the screaming minority don't want a second vote
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Post by stewart on Jul 11, 2019 21:36:12 GMT
Is it time to have a good hark
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Post by sword65 on Jul 11, 2019 22:28:28 GMT
Is it time to have a good hark Did predictive text change that last word?
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Post by Nick on Jul 12, 2019 7:02:12 GMT
Oh dear sword. You do lower the tone of this forum at times !
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Post by sword65 on Jul 12, 2019 7:39:48 GMT
Oh dear sword. You do lower the tone of this forum at times ! What's wrong with having a good lark?😇😇
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Post by Better things to do in life on Jul 12, 2019 10:36:37 GMT
This is so over complicating things. The British people voted clearly and their elected representatives haven’t done what they voted for so they have failed their democratic duty. Simples. Just like a highly paid Ambassador whose only job is to develop good relations between his country and the country he is assigned to and then slags that country off has failed in his diplomatic duties. Simple. In both examples the culprits needed to be removed but sadly when it come to MPs democracy of the people is now dead as the media and our betters in parliament clearly can override the will of the people as they wish or see fit as clearly they think they know better than the people they owe their jobs too! We may as well go back 200 years and give the vote only to male llanded gentry as that feels like where we are anyway! Also didn’t the recent European elections give a fairly clear further indication of voters instructions to our elected representatives? I.e leave now, deal or no deal. Simples. Which part of WE WANT TO LEAVE do these supposedly better educated supposedly elected supposedly representatives of the people NOT understand? Sheesh! The trouble is that those of us who are better educated understand that there are a multitude of ways of leaving but when you ask for detail you get less educated and fairly clueless people screaming 'we just want to leave' at you without a scintilla of a clue as to what they are on about. Mrs May's deal was leaving and you screamed about it. I see the constant claim that no deal was what you wanted all along. That was hardly, if ever, mentioned prior to the referendum. In fact, it only started getting mentioned with any force last year when the great deal promised in 2016 failed to materialise. It is complicated. What bit of 45 years of integration will be difficult to unravel do you not get? No you just sit there screeching and complaining without thinking? Incidentally, I would expect an ambassador to be passing the truth back to the UK which is precisely what he did. Maybe you should go after the person who leaked the information. As for going back 200 years. Don't worry, your vote for the policies of JRM is helping that along. You mention democracy. I take it the UK Parliamentary democracy that was so sought after is now not so sought after. I find it strange that the 'will of the people' that is so strongly brexit didn't deliver a stronger mandate for Brexit in 2017. Just remember..."A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy". I leave you to discover who wrote that gem Ok, NWS, you are, of course, entitled to your view, but just some observations:
- Why is your view "better educated" ? You have no idea what education I have, and I think you would be surprised if you did! Why do you assume that not over complicating things is uneducated, and why do remainers - educated and uneducated - seem to all want to insult brexiteers by bracketing them as ignorant (and worse!) stereotypical brainless right wingers?
- Whilst deal or no deal was not a part of the original referendum, leaving Europe was, which hasn't happened because of the endless refusal to accept a deal by Remain MP's not doing their democratic duty to implement the will of the people that elected them, which is why a no deal is now a must for democracy to prevail (Again, quite a simple concept)
- Even if you believe the ambassador was telling the truth in the leaked information (Which I don't), don't you think he was being just a little insulting about it for a so-called diplomat?
- Of course democracy involves changing your mind, but for heavens sake, we haven't even implemented the first referendum decision yet. To change our mind now is just being indecisive and double minded.
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure!
Have a great weekend!
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