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Post by 61666 on Feb 21, 2020 8:52:05 GMT
And a tiny section of that ends up playing for Maidstone United. Somewhat unfair to say the least, but unless this was just another one of our 'bad days', then by and large Bath showed that our league position doesn't lie. Not going to be relegated, not going to be promoted, just mid table. The team have shown they have more than enough in the tank to beat those in the bottom third of the table, but not enough to compete with the play off clubs, unless we have a really good day and they have an off one, like at H&W. There will always be exceptions, like the Tonbridge game, but by and large, we are where we are for a reason, or several of them in fact. First, we don't have enough pace. One or two players, but not enough to make a difference. Second, we don't have enough skill and certainly very few players with pace as well. Third, we don't have players with enough vision - the on field wit to see the spaces to open up a defence, or cut out the chance making pass. To be fair, we do have enough of the above to beat the teams in the bottom third of the table, but not to to compete consistently with the play off teams. When a team gets promoted, it is likely most of the players should cope, if not exactly prosper in the league above. Not sure than many of our current squad could do that. Wishart, Amaluzor (when he can be bothered), Kahn and perhaps a couple more, but that's it. Which is why we are where we are. They are not bad players, but there are not enough of a sufficient standard to make a real impact in this league. For me, there are two ways to change that. The obvious one is more money, to attract more talent. Trouble is, full tine players of the required standard are not really going to want to play in this league. Therefore a return to part time next season, attracting the best quality we can afford is for me a far better bet than having the worst of what is available from the full time pool. What would be good though would be to keep a small core of full time players, to act as part of the coaching staff, working with the development squad and younger, when the first team are not in. Hoyte, Elokobi, Bouchard, Lewington maybe? We could do worse.
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Post by Nick on Feb 21, 2020 9:31:33 GMT
It's the old chestnut.
Some people believe that you can get much better quality part-time footballers than you can possibly recruit by offering full time contracts.
It's probably stretching it a bit to suggest that a lot less individual and team coaching would actually improve team play, individual skills and fitness.
So with that pretty obvious downside, we had better be very sure that there is real evidence to demonstrate the superiority of P/T local players over F/T players and also who are kicking their heels at the moment waiting for an offer from the club.
Is it just a belief or can somebody name a squad of part-timers that we could recruit in the near future, take NLS by storm and shift us to the next level?
Which begs another question, when we get promoted with this outstanding team of part time players, what do we do then ?
Cull the lot of them, recruit full time and go into an inevitable decline ? The part time debate goes on and maybe, just maybe, that is the best way forward to sunny uplands, flying unicorns and promotion to the EFL.
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Post by daveu on Feb 21, 2020 9:59:06 GMT
Interesting that the players many people still crave who left when we went full time are now either plying their trade at a lower level or not at all. Flish has spent more time injured than playing since he left us. Tom Mills has completely dropped off the radar after spending a season at Sheppey United, but many of the full time players we recruited are still playing (mostly for Dover) in the NL. The idea of committed part time players being better than full time players is nothing more than a Utopian fantasy.
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Post by 61666 on Feb 21, 2020 10:37:18 GMT
It all depends on the context, which people seem to be ignoring. The NLP is a full time league. The NLS is not. A few are, most aren't. Therefore, when you drop out of the NLP, you gamble on keeping/recruiting professionals who mainly don't want to be there, because they want to play at a higher level. The difference between full time professionals and part timers in the NLS is that the professional can't get work higher up, a pointer to maybe they aren't good enough anymore. Part time players CHOOSE to be that way, because they have other, better, careers they want to pursue. It is my firm belief that there are many players in this category who are significantly better than their full time peers at our level. The problem, as already stated, is that if/when you get promoted to the NLP, you are almost certainly going to have to sign a new, full time squad. That is the Catch 22 of this league. Blow a lot of money to get the full timers, win the league first time and hope to keep them, or be more prudent and pragmatic. I will be very surprised if we stay full time next season. Current budgets suggest we are below a glass ceiling unless something fundamental changes.
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Post by Fed up with PC views only on Feb 21, 2020 10:59:54 GMT
It all depends on the context, which people seem to be ignoring. The NLP is a full time league. The NLS is not. A few are, most aren't. Therefore, when you drop out of the NLP, you gamble on keeping/recruiting professionals who mainly don't want to be there, because they want to play at a higher level. The difference between full time professionals and part timers in the NLS is that the professional can't get work higher up, a pointer to maybe they aren't good enough anymore. Part time players CHOOSE to be that way, because they have other, better, careers they want to pursue. It is my firm belief that there are many players in this category who are significantly better than their full time peers at our level. The problem, as already stated, is that if/when you get promoted to the NLP, you are almost certainly going to have to sign a new, full time squad. That is the Catch 22 of this league. Blow a lot of money to get the full timers, win the league first time and hope to keep them, or be more prudent and pragmatic. I will be very surprised if we stay full time next season. Current budgets suggest we are below a glass ceiling unless something fundamental changes. Its a dilemma. I have erred on the side of being PT in NLS, as I feel many FT players at this level are not good enough to justify FT wages, but I'm starting to wonder if the PT players that would be available would be good enough, or committed enough, to win this league. Rocks and hard places come to mind. The PT players we loved in the 3 in 4 were only passionate in their early twenties but as soon as they got older (I.e. mid 20's!), and their "other" careers took off or they started families etc they seemed to lose interest in their football careers and fell down the ladders to just play for fun - Like Flish, Millsy, Alex Brown etc. Maybe we should try to keep Jake or Chris (But not both) and George, and talents like Noah, Saidoo, Ross and Justin on FT wage (if they wanted to stay!), and go PT for the rest? Players like Akanbi (Who I like) Iffy, etc don't seem any better than a 20 year old Part-Timer who still loves their football. Its a tough one. Makes me glad I'm not the owners...………………………………..
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Post by sword65 on Feb 21, 2020 11:32:10 GMT
It's the old chestnut. Some people believe that you can get much better quality part-time footballers than you can possibly recruit by offering full time contracts. It's probably stretching it a bit to suggest that a lot less individual and team coaching would actually improve team play, individual skills and fitness. So with that pretty obvious downside, we had better be very sure that there is real evidence to demonstrate the superiority of P/T local players over F/T players and also who are kicking their heels at the moment waiting for an offer from the club. Is it just a belief or can somebody name a squad of part-timers that we could recruit in the near future, take NLS by storm and shift us to the next level? Which begs another question, when we get promoted with this outstanding team of part time players, what do we do then ? Cull the lot of them, recruit full time and go into an inevitable decline ? The part time debate goes on and maybe, just maybe, that is the best way forward to sunny uplands, flying unicorns and promotion to the EFL. In the end it does not matter if we are full time or part time for all the time we are playing on 3G we will never,repeat never,reach the EFL. I personally would like to revert to good part time players and put any profits towards finishing the ground not paying ridiculous sums to full time players,many of whom dont give a tuppeney toss about the club.
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Post by Fed up with PC views only on Feb 21, 2020 11:48:54 GMT
It's the old chestnut. Some people believe that you can get much better quality part-time footballers than you can possibly recruit by offering full time contracts. It's probably stretching it a bit to suggest that a lot less individual and team coaching would actually improve team play, individual skills and fitness. So with that pretty obvious downside, we had better be very sure that there is real evidence to demonstrate the superiority of P/T local players over F/T players and also who are kicking their heels at the moment waiting for an offer from the club. Is it just a belief or can somebody name a squad of part-timers that we could recruit in the near future, take NLS by storm and shift us to the next level? Which begs another question, when we get promoted with this outstanding team of part time players, what do we do then ? Cull the lot of them, recruit full time and go into an inevitable decline ? The part time debate goes on and maybe, just maybe, that is the best way forward to sunny uplands, flying unicorns and promotion to the EFL. In the end it does not matter if we are full time or part time for all the time we are playing on 3G we will never,repeat never,reach the EFL. I personally would like to revert to good part time players and put any profits towards finishing the ground not paying ridiculous sums to full time players,many of whom dont give a tuppeney toss about the club. Never say never, Swordy! Also, probably like you I hate seeing a whole side of such a good stadium as ours not having a stand on it at all, or the Genco being empty underneath, but we don't really need any more than that in NLS, only NL, for which we need to be FT, so you go round in circles. I DEFINITELY am glad I am not one of our owners!
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Post by 61666 on Feb 21, 2020 12:30:25 GMT
Amen to that. Rocks and hard places everywhere you look.
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Post by Rob on Feb 21, 2020 13:52:20 GMT
swordy, do you have inside information about these 'ridiculous sums' we pay our players.
My understanding is that they are on pretty modest wages and substantially below last season levels.
So are you just going for a good looking soundbite or do you any facts to support your claim ?
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Post by sword65 on Feb 21, 2020 14:19:22 GMT
swordy, do you have inside information about these 'ridiculous sums' we pay our players. My understanding is that they are on pretty modest wages and substantially below last season levels. So are you just going for a good looking soundbite or do you any facts to support your claim ? I very much doubt they are on minimum wage and I have as much idea of how much they are on this season as you know how much they were on last season. You should know by now my feelings on footballers pay ,whatever it is it's too much,and whatever it is I havent seen one player this year who is worth his wages with the possible exception of Mclure who got even greedier and fucked off just like many of our players will if someone waves an extra 20 notes at them in the summer.
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Post by jakeyboi on Feb 21, 2020 14:22:43 GMT
I think before we start looking at the next stage of recruitment the club,s management need a long hard look at themselves and what there ambitions are, I think that if a club has no passion or desire to look to improve year after year an want to storm up the leagues then they may struggle to recruit players who want to play at the highest level. We all know players have a short playing lifetime. So it is obvious the younger keener players will look to sign for ambitious clubs an journeymen coming towards the end of there playing years will sign for whoever wants to pay them a decent wage. So the more ambitious the club portrays itself may help in recruiting a player with higher standards and ambitions. Just my opinion an I may be wrong.
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Post by daveu on Feb 21, 2020 17:08:43 GMT
swordy, do you have inside information about these 'ridiculous sums' we pay our players. My understanding is that they are on pretty modest wages and substantially below last season levels. So are you just going for a good looking soundbite or do you any facts to support your claim ? I very much doubt they are on minimum wage and I have as much idea of how much they are on this season as you know how much they were on last season. You should know by now my feelings on footballers pay ,whatever it is it's too much,and whatever it is I havent seen one player this year who is worth his wages with the possible exception of Mclure who got even greedier and fucked off just like many of our players will if someone waves an extra 20 notes at them in the summer. Maybe you should be watching your local Sunday league side then. It's pretty much the only place you'll get to see players you think are worth the money, and that's only because most of them pay to play.
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Post by sword65 on Feb 21, 2020 17:38:14 GMT
I very much doubt they are on minimum wage and I have as much idea of how much they are on this season as you know how much they were on last season. You should know by now my feelings on footballers pay ,whatever it is it's too much,and whatever it is I havent seen one player this year who is worth his wages with the possible exception of Mclure who got even greedier and fucked off just like many of our players will if someone waves an extra 20 notes at them in the summer. Maybe you should be watching your local Sunday league side then. It's pretty much the only place you'll get to see players you think are worth the money, and that's only because most of them pay to play. I dont like greed and virtually all players these days are greedy from the Prem to step5.
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Post by Sennockian69 on Feb 21, 2020 22:51:00 GMT
Interesting that the players many people still crave who left when we went full time are now either plying their trade at a lower level or not at all. Flish has spent more time injured than playing since he left us. Tom Mills has completely dropped off the radar after spending a season at Sheppey United, but many of the full time players we recruited are still playing (mostly for Dover) in the NL. The idea of committed part time players being better than full time players is nothing more than a Utopian fantasy. It's a fantasy peddled by those who think we are still at the Ryman Premier League level. Note: The teams at the bottom of the NS are teams with part time players - Now that's a ringing endorsement for part time players.
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Post by jdl on Feb 22, 2020 1:11:18 GMT
Interesting that the players many people still crave who left when we went full time are now either plying their trade at a lower level or not at all. Flish has spent more time injured than playing since he left us. Tom Mills has completely dropped off the radar after spending a season at Sheppey United, but many of the full time players we recruited are still playing (mostly for Dover) in the NL. The idea of committed part time players being better than full time players is nothing more than a Utopian fantasy. It's a fantasy peddled by those who think we are still at the Ryman Premier League level. Note: The teams at the bottom of the NS are teams with part time players - Now that's a ringing endorsement for part time players. Or, to put it more accurately - teams throughout the NS are part-time, not just at the bottom. The current probable champions and at least one of the contenders may be full-time (or not - how do we know?), but presumably most of the rest of the top 7 are part-time? And at least one full-time team is stuck at 9th and doesn't look too likely to make it into the play-offs. The problem with the full-time/part-time argument is that both arguments are equally valid. We are 'full-time' already and are ambitious to get back into the NL, where full-time is generally accepted to be necessary, so it's not really likely that we'll revert to part-time (unless finances dictate that we do). On the other hand, we got to the NL as part-timers and had our most successful season there as part-timers. So, it is both possible and (simultaneously) unlikely. A bit like quantum physics... Add in the fact that no one can agree on what 'full-time' is, other than (at least) 3 days training a week - which part-timers couldn't attend anyway - and the whole debate becomes pointless. We are 'full-time' and will remain 'full time' - as long as we can afford it.
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