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Post by sword65 on Sept 11, 2019 16:33:54 GMT
Hate to disappoint you, but none of this is true. Try looking up the facts first, as what you report is typical anti EU false information and lies Those were the facts given to me by a source I can describe as reputable . Tha article that toonarmy shows me that all the points are there but not all are shown in a positive context rather than negative. I for one do not want to take any chances ,we get out now!
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Post by Better things to do in life on Sept 11, 2019 16:42:21 GMT
Leaving without a deal was never an option. Just because a deal wasn't mentioned in the ballot paper doesn't mean that it wasn't implied. The whole leave campaign was based around us having some kind of deal with the EU. People on both sides voted for a huge range of reasons, some more sophisticated than others, some more virtuous than others, some based on the false claims made by either side and some not.
The idea that you can invalidate, the result of the referendum because "no deal was not on the ballot paper" or because there were false claims made (by both sides I should say) makes a nonsense of a referendum.
But people glibly talk about "deal or no deal" without even really understanding what it means.
IF we leave the EU, then at some point in the future we will have a negotiated bilateral trading agreement with them, we will also have other agreements covering non-trade items (security, migration, defence etc.)
In between the time of leaving and getting this (those) agreements signed off, we will either have "transitional arrangements" (probably quite close in nature to still being in the EU) or the relationship will be on the basis of "international norms" - WTO for trade, Interpol, NATO etc. etc.
This is what is really meant by "deal" or "no deal".
Certainly the lack of any coherent transitional arrangement will be bad for the UK economy as it will for the EU economy, to be frank though it will be worst of all for the Irish economy (unless we do them any favours).
However, I do not really think there is any evidence to suggest that the "end game" will be any better or any worse, whether or not we have a transitional arrangement. (Without transitional arrangements, the timespan will in fact probably be shorter - as there will be a greater incentive on both sides to come to the final conclusion.)
I do not have a lot of time for the "blame game" in all of this (even less time for Boris), but given that the so called "deal" is actually about the transitional arrangements, then probably the biggest cause of this chaos was the EU and there insistence that talks about the future relationship could not start until the "divorce settlement" was fully agreed (and perhaps May is also to blame for rolling over on this point). The timespan between the UK invoking article 50 and the leave date , should have been the transitional period but this was scuppered by that stance.
I am as dismayed as anyone that we have Boris in charge and cannot support his methods. Nevertheless I AM now of the view that if he by design or mis-step ends up delivering a "no deal Brexit" SOON, it will be a better outcome than the endless prevarication.
Of course I do understand that those that want to overturn the Brexit decision will never agree with that point of view, but in fact the sooner we make the break the sooner we can begin to build the future relationship with our European partners, perhaps based on some of the original principles of the EEC. (There's lots to like about European Co-operation, but the United States of Europe is not in my view one of the acceptable positives).
Brilliantly put.
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Post by Nick on Sept 11, 2019 16:47:41 GMT
Sword, everything you have heard from that bloody parrot of yours on the subject of Brexit is total bollocks, to put it politely.
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Post by jdl on Sept 11, 2019 17:54:52 GMT
I've shot myself in the foot and am in agony, but I can't get anyone to fix it, I've been waiting years now and the pain's just getting me down. It could be another year before I can get it fixed.
In fact, I'm so fed up waiting, I'm going to do what some people are telling me and shoot myself in the other foot as well.
Surely that's better than waiting to see if my first foot can be fixed?
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Post by 61666 on Sept 11, 2019 17:58:12 GMT
Thankyou Toon my mind rests a little easier but it still frightens the life out of me as I a m sure the EU will turn it all to their advantage somehow and we will let them. Not half as much as it frightens the rest of us about what the BoJo Politbureau are up to. Oh, and at least some of it has already been declared illegal. Perhaps they will appeal to the European Court of Justice?!??
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Post by sword65 on Sept 11, 2019 18:28:39 GMT
I am sorry one and all but I do not trust the EU to have GB's interest at heart. They will f**k us over for their own good just as they are doing right now. There is not a country in the EU that likes GB so why trust them any further. Up until today I was willing to take either result but now I am a born again leaver. We need out and we need it now-!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 21:07:07 GMT
I am sorry one and all but I do not trust the EU to have GB's interest at heart. They will f**k us over for their own good just as they are doing right now. There is not a country in the EU that likes GB so why trust them any further. Up until today I was willing to take either result but now I am a born again leaver. We need out and we need it now-! This is why I find it so frustrating. What has the E.U. done to cause you no trust ( everything they have done we Britain has been part of the Decision making process. Why will they F**k us over when have they before? Where is your evidence that no country likes us they have given as a membership with better benefits than Germany but we want to throw it away. They keep extending the date to allow us to work through our own domestic parliament issues. No doubt they have got frustrated with us who wouldn't we want to leave and have all the benefits but they have done no harm to us. You are paranoid they have bent over backwards but you hate them because you without evidence believe they hate us. I don't think they understand us and who could blame them? Leaving is insanity in the extreme
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Post by Nick on Sept 11, 2019 21:33:58 GMT
I'm sure Malcolm (alias sword) will appreciate you messaging him Rob, but I wonder if you know that you are conversing with a parrot. Still he probably makes more sense than Cedric the tortoise.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 21:42:19 GMT
I'm sure Malcolm (alias sword) will appreciate you messaging him Rob, but I wonder if you know that you are conversing with a parrot. Still he probably makes more sense than Cedric the tortoise. That will be why I have a sore head from repeatedly banging it against the Brexit brick wall
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Post by sword65 on Sept 11, 2019 21:44:29 GMT
I am sorry one and all but I do not trust the EU to have GB's interest at heart. They will f**k us over for their own good just as they are doing right now. There is not a country in the EU that likes GB so why trust them any further. Up until today I was willing to take either result but now I am a born again leaver. We need out and we need it now-! This is why I find it so frustrating. What has the E.U. done to cause you no trust ( everything they have done we Britain has been part of the Decision making process. Why will they F**k us over when have they before? Where is your evidence that no country likes us they have given as a membership with better benefits than Germany but we want to throw it away. They keep extending the date to allow us to work through our own domestic parliament issues. No doubt they have got frustrated with us who wouldn't we want to leave and have all the benefits but they have done no harm to us. You are paranoid they have bent over backwards but you hate them because you without evidence believe they hate us. I don't think they understand us and who could blame them? Leaving is insanity in the extreme I never at any point said I was sane in fact my psychiatrist, God bless her, is now convinced it is not so alas she is in the rubber room not me but I think it's my fault.Malcolm is Scottish and would love devolution so he could go home back to Jedburgh but he doesnt realize his previous owner is dead and so he is stuck with me. As for Cedric ,he disappeared weeks ago so f**k knows what he is up to or what he is shagging but I an sure he will come back some day
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Post by nws on Sept 11, 2019 23:38:51 GMT
I am sorry one and all but I do not trust the EU to have GB's interest at heart. They will f**k us over for their own good just as they are doing right now. There is not a country in the EU that likes GB so why trust them any further. Up until today I was willing to take either result but now I am a born again leaver. We need out and we need it now-! So, to sum up. You got a story from a 'reputable' source. The story told about a treaty from several years ago that was going to cause Britain all sorts of pain. The story turns out to be utter hogwash. You don't denounce your source as disreputable and an idiot feeding you utter lies. You decide the lies are not portrayed the way you like. From this You thus conclude the EU might do nasty things. You want out NOW! Jesus wept...the mental gymnastics od a leaver that won't listen to fact.
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Post by nws on Sept 12, 2019 0:02:51 GMT
Leaving without a deal was never an option. Just because a deal wasn't mentioned in the ballot paper doesn't mean that it wasn't implied. The whole leave campaign was based around us having some kind of deal with the EU. People on both sides voted for a huge range of reasons, some more sophisticated than others, some more virtuous than others, some based on the false claims made by either side and some not. The idea that you can invalidate, the result of the referendum because "no deal was not on the ballot paper" or because there were false claims made (by both sides I should say) makes a nonsense of a referendum. But people glibly talk about "deal or no deal" without even really understanding what it means. IF we leave the EU, then at some point in the future we will have a negotiated bilateral trading agreement with them, we will also have other agreements covering non-trade items (security, migration, defence etc.)
In between the time of leaving and getting this (those) agreements signed off, we will either have "transitional arrangements" (probably quite close in nature to still being in the EU) or the relationship will be on the basis of "international norms" - WTO for trade, Interpol, NATO etc. etc. This is what is really meant by "deal" or "no deal". Certainly the lack of any coherent transitional arrangement will be bad for the UK economy as it will for the EU economy, to be frank though it will be worst of all for the Irish economy (unless we do them any favours). However, I do not really think there is any evidence to suggest that the "end game" will be any better or any worse, whether or not we have a transitional arrangement. (Without transitional arrangements, the timespan will in fact probably be shorter - as there will be a greater incentive on both sides to come to the final conclusion.) I do not have a lot of time for the "blame game" in all of this (even less time for Boris), but given that the so called "deal" is actually about the transitional arrangements, then probably the biggest cause of this chaos was the EU and there insistence that talks about the future relationship could not start until the "divorce settlement" was fully agreed (and perhaps May is also to blame for rolling over on this point). The timespan between the UK invoking article 50 and the leave date , should have been the transitional period but this was scuppered by that stance. I am as dismayed as anyone that we have Boris in charge and cannot support his methods. Nevertheless I AM now of the view that if he by design or mis-step ends up delivering a "no deal Brexit" SOON, it will be a better outcome than the endless prevarication.
Of course I do understand that those that want to overturn the Brexit decision will never agree with that point of view, but in fact the sooner we make the break the sooner we can begin to build the future relationship with our European partners, perhaps based on some of the original principles of the EEC. (There's lots to like about European Co-operation, but the United States of Europe is not in my view one of the acceptable positives). Some of what you say is interesting but some bits are nonsense. I'm sick of this glib 'there were lies on both sides' argument as though there is equivalence. That is nonsense. Cameron (whom I remain convinced wanted to leave) spoke about emergency budgets which didnt happen while leave spoke about an easy and great deal. However, leave spoke about £350m a week, EU accounts that had not been signed off and unelected bureaucrats. Since the referendum it has been a tissue of lies such as GATT 24, technology solutions to the Irish border problem, the EU dreamt up the Irish border problem and of course Sword's Lisbon treaty fantasy. In the past we have heard about bananas and rocking horse bans. People on both sides did vote for a variety of reasons but remain voters voted for the status quo (I. E. Retain the deal) and to change things from within. It is not overly clear what leave voters voted for. It still isn't clear. 3 years ago all we heard was that the EU would succumb to dmeans and we would get a great deal. Now I seem to continually hear about "just leave! We'll get through it like we did the blitz. Two very different propositions. The reason the referendum is built on quicksand is because electoral fraud was committed. I agree that something needs to change. We need to build consensus and move forward. I think we both agree that needs grown ups mapping things out and compromising. It doesn't need Johnson trying to get his own way like a spoilt brat or corbyn trying to engineer power to start his agenda rolling.
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Post by sword65 on Sept 12, 2019 1:10:41 GMT
I am sorry one and all but I do not trust the EU to have GB's interest at heart. They will f**k us over for their own good just as they are doing right now. There is not a country in the EU that likes GB so why trust them any further. Up until today I was willing to take either result but now I am a born again leaver. We need out and we need it now-! So, to sum up. You got a story from a 'reputable' source. The story told about a treaty from several years ago that was going to cause Britain all sorts of pain. The story turns out to be utter hogwash. You don't denounce your source as disreputable and an idiot feeding you utter lies. You decide the lies are not portrayed the way you like. From this You thus conclude the EU might do nasty things. You want out NOW! Jesus wept...the mental gymnastics od a leaver that won't listen to fact. Not convinced its utter hogwash,need convincing and as much as I like you all I dont believe you know any better than me.
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Post by hongkongstone on Sept 12, 2019 2:29:25 GMT
The scare stories put up by the leading 'leavers' is just a cover for their real reason for wishing to leave. From 1st Jan 2020 there will be new EU rules in place to prevent tax avoidence by creating off-shore funds or businesses. www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/a-reminder-of-all-the-brexiteers-who-appeared-in-the-paradise-papers-as-eu-tax-avoidance-legislation-looms/03/09/Reading this article may go some way to help with understanding who will be the ONLY beneficiaries of Brexit at the expense of the majority of the population and the reason for their current undue haste to leave under whatever circumstance. Unfortunately many people have been succoured into supporting leave on the scare stories and should the UK do so it will only be aiding and abetting rich peoples tax avoidence schemes. I would rather ask the question of pro-leavers as to what specific EU actions have been detrimental to the UK? This is almost like the 'Life of Brian' sketch where the rebels debate 'what have the Romans ever done for us?'. In the case of the EU we can start with human rights, freedom of work and travel, 70 years of peace, open markets, unified standards, equal rights, regional aid, farm subsidies, significantly reduced vehicle emissions...........
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Post by hongkongstone on Sept 12, 2019 5:24:57 GMT
A bonus link for all you Brexiteers that think that leaving is in the nations interest:
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