|
Post by jdl on Nov 17, 2019 22:46:22 GMT
Thinking it through from T&O's position - they both 'invested' in full knowledge that they were unlikely to get their money back, so, presumably, that money has been effectively written off by them (i.e. they don't need it for business or personal requirements).
Therefore, there is no pressure on them to sell up, I imagine they're both in this for the long-term (retirement at least, probably longer). The pressure to consider extra investment/new owners comes purely from their desire to see the club progress and their fears that their investment alone isn't enough to do that.
They are fans, as well as owners, and, much as we might argue that being a top NS/mid-table NL club is fine, they, like most of us, want to see the club do more. We certainly have the potential to be a successful NL club; probably a lower league EFL club, in time - 'all' that is required is more money. And this situation creates a tension in most fans (including T&O) - we want to see the club achieve what we think it can do, but we are all too aware of the risks.
Personally, unless a good fairy comes along, prepared to 'invest' a few million, but not do a Tamplin, I favour the other approach - step by step improvement, as funds allow, build the team, play football people want to see, build the attendance, increase the income - and build infrastructure as money allows (FAC runs, etc). With our potential, it shouldn't be impossible to get back into the NL and stay there, without Clown-style spending. Ditto, from there, with gates increasing, it shouldn't be impossible to one-day make the step up to the EFL.
The problem is that this will take time. So, for instance, much as I'd like to see us have a crack at promotion this season, I'd rather wait a season or two until we've got the team, management and infrastructure in place to ensure we survive in the NL.
But there are a number of issues that worry me there. First, it's clear, even with JS2's magic, that it takes at least a season to build up a solid, championship wining side, capable of forming the core of a successful NL side. Secondly, how long will JS2 be with us? When we do make the step back up, I'd like to see the same management team make the transition, and currently I don't have any faith in HH being the man to do that, certainly not on his own.
And thirdly, Bill. Arguably, he is the rock MUFC is built on - it's quite likely that we wouldn't be back in the town, with T&O in charge without Bill, and I suspect T&O rely on him more than we realise. But he is no spring chicken. When he finally decides to retire, what then?
To progress to the stage where we can get back into the NL and survive comfortably there, we need a period of stability and steady progress (as we had with JS1), my concern is that isn’t going to be what we’ll get over the next few seasons.
|
|
|
Post by Bernie on Nov 18, 2019 6:23:12 GMT
We used to be around 5th in the NL attendance league. Today we would be 7th or 8th, if our crowds returned to previous levels. Minus a few hundred for ongoing ground improvements others don't have to consider. Include the need to double attendances to catch up with the sugar daddy clubs. That would probably put us somewhere near the bottom of the National League in terms of income. Which means any manager has to be smarter in getting value out of players. Which brings us back to JS1...
|
|
|
Post by sword65 on Nov 18, 2019 9:02:31 GMT
Thinking it through from T&O's position - they both 'invested' in full knowledge that they were unlikely to get their money back, so, presumably, that money has been effectively written off by them (i.e. they don't need it for business or personal requirements). Therefore, there is no pressure on them to sell up, I imagine they're both in this for the long-term (retirement at least, probably longer). The pressure to consider extra investment/new owners comes purely from their desire to see the club progress and their fears that their investment alone isn't enough to do that. They are fans, as well as owners, and, much as we might argue that being a top NS/mid-table NL club is fine, they, like most of us, want to see the club do more. We certainly have the potential to be a successful NL club; probably a lower league EFL club, in time - 'all' that is required is more money. And this situation creates a tension in most fans (including T&O) - we want to see the club achieve what we think it can do, but we are all too aware of the risks. Personally, unless a good fairy comes along, prepared to 'invest' a few million, but not do a Tamplin, I favour the other approach - step by step improvement, as funds allow, build the team, play football people want to see, build the attendance, increase the income - and build infrastructure as money allows (FAC runs, etc). With our potential, it shouldn't be impossible to get back into the NL and stay there, without Clown-style spending. Ditto, from there, with gates increasing, it shouldn't be impossible to one-day make the step up to the EFL. The problem is that this will take time. So, for instance, much as I'd like to see us have a crack at promotion this season, I'd rather wait a season or two until we've got the team, management and infrastructure in place to ensure we survive in the NL. But there are a number of issues that worry me there. First, it's clear, even with JS2's magic, that it takes at least a season to build up a solid, championship wining side, capable of forming the core of a successful NL side. Secondly, how long will JS2 be with us? When we do make the step back up, I'd like to see the same management team make the transition, and currently I don't have any faith in HH being the man to do that, certainly not on his own. And thirdly, Bill. Arguably, he is the rock MUFC is built on - it's quite likely that we wouldn't be back in the town, with T&O in charge without Bill, and I suspect T&O rely on him more than we realise. But he is no spring chicken. When he finally decides to retire, what then? To progress to the stage where we can get back into the NL and survive comfortably there, we need a period of stability and steady progress (as we had with JS1), my concern is that isn’t going to be what we’ll get over the next few seasons. Good post JDL but my main concern is that the new investor would want to see the club in the EFL and to achieve that then the 3G has to go and T&O still remain obstinately adamant that 3G is the way to go. This may then provide a conflict at board level that could harm the club in the long run. Alternatively they may attract an investor who has the same ideals as themselves but would he be willing to splash the cash for ground improvements for a club that can never join the EFL because they will unlikely change their stance on artificial surfaces as let's face it if they were going to accept them they would have done it by now. I personally think finishing the ground for future generations should take priority over reaching for the stars as a better experience and a better view may do wonders for attracting more supporters on a regular basis and a new town end with a better clubhouse than the abject horror that is the Spitfire lounge.
|
|
|
Post by shamstone on Nov 18, 2019 9:31:03 GMT
We could dream though, sword
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 9:47:11 GMT
Thinking it through from T&O's position - they both 'invested' in full knowledge that they were unlikely to get their money back, so, presumably, that money has been effectively written off by them (i.e. they don't need it for business or personal requirements). Therefore, there is no pressure on them to sell up, I imagine they're both in this for the long-term (retirement at least, probably longer). The pressure to consider extra investment/new owners comes purely from their desire to see the club progress and their fears that their investment alone isn't enough to do that. They are fans, as well as owners, and, much as we might argue that being a top NS/mid-table NL club is fine, they, like most of us, want to see the club do more. We certainly have the potential to be a successful NL club; probably a lower league EFL club, in time - 'all' that is required is more money. And this situation creates a tension in most fans (including T&O) - we want to see the club achieve what we think it can do, but we are all too aware of the risks. Personally, unless a good fairy comes along, prepared to 'invest' a few million, but not do a Tamplin, I favour the other approach - step by step improvement, as funds allow, build the team, play football people want to see, build the attendance, increase the income - and build infrastructure as money allows (FAC runs, etc). With our potential, it shouldn't be impossible to get back into the NL and stay there, without Clown-style spending. Ditto, from there, with gates increasing, it shouldn't be impossible to one-day make the step up to the EFL. The problem is that this will take time. So, for instance, much as I'd like to see us have a crack at promotion this season, I'd rather wait a season or two until we've got the team, management and infrastructure in place to ensure we survive in the NL. But there are a number of issues that worry me there. First, it's clear, even with JS2's magic, that it takes at least a season to build up a solid, championship wining side, capable of forming the core of a successful NL side. Secondly, how long will JS2 be with us? When we do make the step back up, I'd like to see the same management team make the transition, and currently I don't have any faith in HH being the man to do that, certainly not on his own. And thirdly, Bill. Arguably, he is the rock MUFC is built on - it's quite likely that we wouldn't be back in the town, with T&O in charge without Bill, and I suspect T&O rely on him more than we realise. But he is no spring chicken. When he finally decides to retire, what then? To progress to the stage where we can get back into the NL and survive comfortably there, we need a period of stability and steady progress (as we had with JS1), my concern is that isn’t going to be what we’ll get over the next few seasons. Good post JDL but my main concern is that the new investor would want to see the club in the EFL and to achieve that then the 3G has to go and T&O still remain obstinately adamant that 3G is the way to go. This may then provide a conflict at board level that could harm the club in the long run. Alternatively they may attract an investor who has the same ideals as themselves but would he be willing to splash the cash for ground improvements for a club that can never join the EFL because they will unlikely change their stance on artificial surfaces as let's face it if they were going to accept them they would have done it by now. I personally think finishing the ground for future generations should take priority over reaching for the stars as a better experience and a better view may do wonders for attracting more supporters on a regular basis and a new town end with a better clubhouse than the abject horror that is the Spitfire lounge. "...T&O still remain obstinately adamant that 3G is the way to go." I could be wrong, but I am not convinced this is entirely true anymore. Whilst they would of course still love the FL to give in and accept 3G, I've a strong feeling they do now accept that promotion to the FL would require us to change the pitch to grass - a few bits and pieces of statements they've made in recent months hint at this. What they don't want, I believe, is to get to the stage where we're in that position and they are still the sole owners because they know the money simply won't be there to run a FL club with grass instead of 3G. Football is so unpredictable - in five years time we could still be in NLS, or we could be in the National league play-off's - in a way, that could be the worst case scenario for our owners if they haven't found an additional funding source. It's a very stressful situation for them.
|
|
|
Post by headstone on Nov 18, 2019 10:53:52 GMT
Without another investor, I rather doubt that we will be full time in a couple of seasons' time. What is the point if we don't want (on pragmatic grounds ie head over heart) to be in the National League?
|
|
|
Post by porkystone on Nov 18, 2019 12:04:35 GMT
We used to be around 5th in the NL attendance league. Today we would be 7th or 8th, if our crowds returned to previous levels. Minus a few hundred for ongoing ground improvements others don't have to consider. Include the need to double attendances to catch up with the sugar daddy clubs. That would probably put us somewhere near the bottom of the National League in terms of income. Which means any manager has to be smarter in getting value out of players. Which brings us back to JS1... Indeed, size of the crowd is good because it proves to any investor / sponsor / advertiser that MUFC is a good thing to be a part of, but won't provide the sort of extra income / cash needed to fund a serious full time club & pay for ground improvements. Extra 1,000 attending each game might give a further £ 200,000 pa ( 1,000 x 10 x 20 )( allowing for a mix of adults, seniors & youth ) which is good, but won't build a stand or pay for quality players.
|
|
|
Post by jakeyboi on Nov 18, 2019 12:13:01 GMT
Without another investor, I rather doubt that we will be full time in a couple of seasons' time. What is the point if we don't want (on pragmatic grounds ie head over heart) to be in the National League? Totally agree with you on this, seriously think this will be probably our last season as a full time club, due to clubs finances, there simply is not enough cash available to push for promotion to the NL so this is as high as we can currently get to under the current owners, any new owners would then have to pacify the owners with there intentions for the club an what they expect to happen, I can see this whole business becoming messy an awkward for all concerned with the club.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 15:44:45 GMT
What with this and the transfer-listing of players (none of whom, I note, have actually left), there's a feeling of "we're not doing as well as we want to". The ambition is great but it's unsettling. Too many toys thrown out of the pram at once and we'll be in trouble.
|
|
|
Post by sword65 on Nov 18, 2019 15:46:43 GMT
Without another investor, I rather doubt that we will be full time in a couple of seasons' time. What is the point if we don't want (on pragmatic grounds ie head over heart) to be in the National League? Totally agree with you on this, seriously think this will be probably our last season as a full time club, due to clubs finances, there simply is not enough cash available to push for promotion to the NL so this is as high as we can currently get to under the current owners, any new owners would then have to pacify the owners with there intentions for the club an what they expect to happen, I can see this whole business becoming messy an awkward for all concerned with the club. I agree with you but it's far to early to start worrying about the long term future yet, so a small note to Oldboy you can keep the panic button under wraps for a while🙂
|
|
|
Post by Better things to do in life on Nov 19, 2019 17:06:31 GMT
Totally agree with you on this, seriously think this will be probably our last season as a full time club, due to clubs finances, there simply is not enough cash available to push for promotion to the NL so this is as high as we can currently get to under the current owners, any new owners would then have to pacify the owners with there intentions for the club an what they expect to happen, I can see this whole business becoming messy an awkward for all concerned with the club. I agree with you but it's far to early to start worrying about the long term future yet, so a small note to Oldboy you can keep the panic button under wraps for a while🙂 More of a reality button I think Sword. I have been amazed that we have stayed full time this season and don't expect that to last if we are NLS next year which is quite likely as even if we do make play offs there is no guarantee we will win them and a high likelihood that we wont. This season has a strong whiff of "close but no cigar" about it in so many ways - cups and the league, as I cant see us getting anything at Blackpool. I hope, of course, that I am eating these words with lashings of Ginger Beer and humble pie come April!
|
|
|
Post by shamstone on Nov 19, 2019 17:21:14 GMT
I agree with you but it's far to early to start worrying about the long term future yet, so a small note to Oldboy you can keep the panic button underestimated wraps for a while🙂 More of a reality button I think Sword. I have been amazed that we have stayed full time this season and don't expect that to last if we are NLS next year which is quite likely as even if we do make play offs there is no guarantee we will win them and a high likelihood that we wont. This season has a strong whiff of "close but no cigar" about it in so many ways - cups and the league, as I cant see us getting anything at Blackpool. I hope, of course, that I am eating these words with lashings of Ginger Beer and humble pie come April! Not Ginger Beer in Lashings. I hope
|
|
|
Post by jdl on Nov 19, 2019 21:34:48 GMT
It's a catch-22. We can't afford to survive comfortably in the NL, but neither can we afford to confine our 'ambitions' to staying in the NS.
Many of us said last season that we'd rather be winning at home regularly in the NS and enjoying 'proper' non-league football, than struggling to stay up every season in the NL. It was a natural reaction to Clowngate and watching the team lose practically every game - but it wasn't true. At least not for most of us.
I was one of those, and at the time, I genuinely believed that's what I felt. But the recent juxtaposition of the Hampton and Richmond and Torquay games made me realise I was kidding myself - I don't mind a season or two slumming it in the NS, but the NL is where we belong.
We need to get back there, and we need to find some way of staying there, and enjoying the experience. But, how we do that - f**k knows.
|
|
|
Post by daveu on Nov 19, 2019 21:52:21 GMT
It's a catch-22. We can't afford to survive comfortably in the NL, but neither can we afford to confine our 'ambitions' to staying in the NS. Many of us said last season that we'd rather be winning at home regularly in the NS and enjoying 'proper' non-league football, than struggling to stay up every season in the NL. It was a natural reaction to Clowngate and watching the team lose practically every game - but it wasn't true. At least not for most of us. I was one of those, and at the time, I genuinely believed that's what I felt. But the recent juxtaposition of the Hampton and Richmond and Torquay games made me realise I was kidding myself - I don't mind a season or two slumming it in the NS, but the NL is where we belong. We need to get back there, and we need to find some way of staying there, and enjoying the experience. But, how we do that - f**k knows. I'd rather be a yo-yo club than simply stick around in the middle of the NLS for years. As long as we don't have the same knee jerk reaction as last season if we have a bad patch. I still believe if we'd got the new manager right relegation could have been avoided. But that's all water under the bridge. We may not get promoted this season, but there's no reason why we shouldn't go for it next year, and if we then have a couple of years struggle and maybe another relegation so be it.
|
|
|
Post by Better things to do in life on Nov 20, 2019 9:24:26 GMT
It's a catch-22. We can't afford to survive comfortably in the NL, but neither can we afford to confine our 'ambitions' to staying in the NS. Many of us said last season that we'd rather be winning at home regularly in the NS and enjoying 'proper' non-league football, than struggling to stay up every season in the NL. It was a natural reaction to Clowngate and watching the team lose practically every game - but it wasn't true. At least not for most of us. I was one of those, and at the time, I genuinely believed that's what I felt. But the recent juxtaposition of the Hampton and Richmond and Torquay games made me realise I was kidding myself - I don't mind a season or two slumming it in the NS, but the NL is where we belong. We need to get back there, and we need to find some way of staying there, and enjoying the experience. But, how we do that - f**k knows. Very much a Catch 22. I too thought NLS would be a welcome return to "proper" non-league football (part-time) but its not at all, and to go any lower (or to go back to PT) could be disastrous for the club so I just have to accept that the proper non-league, part-time days are over now and as you say, JDL, we need to get back to NL, find a way of staying there, and enjoying the experience with a team that gives us some highs and not all lows. This season doesn't feel anything like when we were in NLS before - probably because we were on a high, it was a massive achievement back then, and we had come up the ranks so quickly, whereas now when I see Bromley at the top of the NL I cringe and think why not us? Instead this year NLS feels more like just second rate NL, and even thought its great to see us winning more often, and having a team that scores and wants to win, who still doesn't feel a bit of emptiness knowing its not quite NL and not good enough for us? Certainly players like Jake and George and Noah and Wish and others (we can all add our won personal favourites here!) need to be playing in NL. I think either we have been spoilt by being in NL, or, looking at our set up and history in EFL (albeit briefly) and the old Conference, maybe the NL is really our home, in which case we really need to stop dropping stupid points and having off days and get more serious about getting back there. COYS!
|
|