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Post by daveu on May 14, 2018 8:04:15 GMT
The council elections were last Thursday - pressure applied now is a bit ------er late. I disagree. My experience has always been that (most) Borough Councillors are very receptive to the views of their voters. (This doesn't mean that they will always agree with you). They are not "on the gravy train like MPs" (which itself is a total misrepresentation) - they are by and large local people who believe in their local community (which again does not always mean they will agree with your views on the same).
As I understand it, the original decision NOT to sell the land was based on the opinions of the employed officers. Councillors, probably tend to defer to the views of the 'experts' they employ, but some councillors (including one of mine) chose to challenge this decision otherwise we would not have got this far with the discussion. When 'our' plans a thwarted it is tempting to think that this is "MBC" once again failing to recognise the value of the stones, but I really don't think so. "MBC" does not really exist in the context of these votes, it is individual councillors expressing their views. Whilst there may be some in "totally safe" wards who only want to spread their own prejudices (probably shared by their recumbent electorate); the majority actually want to represent their communities (and some feel the fear if they do not); so I would say that most councillors WILL take on board the views of their elctorate. If you RANT at them they will ignore you, but if you give a calm statement of your views, they WILL engage. I do not really know the land valuation issues, but I am totally confident (more probably than Terry!) that they can be resolved amicably - When the "grown ups" get to talk to each other, **The only bad deal is no deal** {COMMENT INTENDED FOR THIS TOPIC ONLY}
Agreed 100%. And while I have much respect for Terry, publicly slating the council in the local press isn't helpful.
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Post by nws on May 14, 2018 21:32:06 GMT
I disagree. My experience has always been that (most) Borough Councillors are very receptive to the views of their voters. (This doesn't mean that they will always agree with you). They are not "on the gravy train like MPs" (which itself is a total misrepresentation) - they are by and large local people who believe in their local community (which again does not always mean they will agree with your views on the same).
As I understand it, the original decision NOT to sell the land was based on the opinions of the employed officers. Councillors, probably tend to defer to the views of the 'experts' they employ, but some councillors (including one of mine) chose to challenge this decision otherwise we would not have got this far with the discussion. When 'our' plans a thwarted it is tempting to think that this is "MBC" once again failing to recognise the value of the stones, but I really don't think so. "MBC" does not really exist in the context of these votes, it is individual councillors expressing their views. Whilst there may be some in "totally safe" wards who only want to spread their own prejudices (probably shared by their recumbent electorate); the majority actually want to represent their communities (and some feel the fear if they do not); so I would say that most councillors WILL take on board the views of their elctorate. If you RANT at them they will ignore you, but if you give a calm statement of your views, they WILL engage. I do not really know the land valuation issues, but I am totally confident (more probably than Terry!) that they can be resolved amicably - When the "grown ups" get to talk to each other, **The only bad deal is no deal** {COMMENT INTENDED FOR THIS TOPIC ONLY}
Agreed 100%. And while I have much respect for Terry, publicly slating the council in the local press isn't helpful. I hate to tell you boys but we have appeased the council for most of my adult life and the only time I have ever noted them try to help us was when we all wrote to Ann Widdicombe to complain about their intransigence. Thus, a bit of 'ranting' did seem to work. I engaged a ranting councillor once (who was ranting about how nobody wanted a football club). I wrote a nice letter offering to accompany him to take straw poll of whether people wanted a football club in Maidstone or a totem pole (fairly new at the time). Never heard again.
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Post by Sennockian69 on May 14, 2018 23:07:04 GMT
Can't we do a deal and reach a compromise with MBC?
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Post by Tstone on May 15, 2018 7:24:04 GMT
Agreed 100%. And while I have much respect for Terry, publicly slating the council in the local press isn't helpful. I hate to tell you boys but we have appeased the council for most of my adult life and the only time I have ever noted them try to help us was when we all wrote to Ann Widdicombe to complain about their intransigence. Thus, a bit of 'ranting' did seem to work. I engaged a ranting councillor once (who was ranting about how nobody wanted a football club). I wrote a nice letter offering to accompany him to take straw poll of whether people wanted a football club in Maidstone or a totem pole (fairly new at the time). Never heard again. Do you really think that our current MP can help?
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Post by daveu on May 15, 2018 8:01:52 GMT
Can't we do a deal and reach a compromise with MBC? Probably not if we keep winding them up the wrong way in such a public manner. I can't agree with NWS that having a rant achieves anything other than making the people that you are criticising even less inclined to be supportive.
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Post by steveh21 on May 15, 2018 8:43:58 GMT
Nws is spot on..we have appeased the council year after year. They are elected officials and need to be held to account when they are acting against the wider interests of the town. Vocal criticism in a democracy is not 'ranting'. Politicians get moaned at all the time!
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Post by pieman1982 on May 15, 2018 8:55:32 GMT
Not sure how to set it up, but an online patiotion to show support for a lower price for the land? Or maybe a fan funding page for donations to show even better support? Both have problems especially the 2nd as MBC could get just what they want money wise!
Can’t think of any other way to show Just how many people support the club’s needs. Politics is all about the numbers. Does the club annoy many people? I don’t see how it could unless you live in a rabbit hole in the scrub land next to the river 🤔 Surely the support for the club far outweighs the its opposition. Unless you count the 2,500 other halves of fans who lose their partners for half the weekend 😆
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Post by jdl on May 15, 2018 8:56:57 GMT
Can't we do a deal and reach a compromise with MBC? Probably not if we keep winding them up the wrong way in such a public manner. I can't agree with NWS that having a rant achieves anything other than making the people that you are criticising even less inclined to be supportive. Dave is right. I was involved in local politics for years in my misspent youth, and, although there are some genuine councillors who are self sacrificing and only there to try to do good, many are strange people who are there for their own reasons. I don't mean that in terms of personal gain or anything like that, it's really too low a position and too devoid of power for that, but many councillors are just 'odd'. They have particular bees in their bonnets, or hard and fast views (sometimes on quite odd things), or it's just a career or their life to them - or they're just weird characters - it's difficult to explain if you don't know them or try to work with them. Some of them just like being big fish in a (very) small pond, and they really enjoy situations like this, where they fleetingly have real power, as it feeds their egos. I'm not in any way putting down the hardworking, genuine councillors, and maybe it's not quite as bad these days, but, in order to get any influence over councillors, you have to understand who they are and why they're there. Logical appeals like MUFC being popular and good for the local economy won't necessarily make any impact, and some of them will react very stubbornly to any obvious attempt to persuade them (like protests, etc). If anyone doubts any of this, ask yourself if you'd want to be a councillor - and if not, why would anyone else want to do it? How many balanced, genuinely good, people do you know, who have time on their hands and a real desire to help the community for very little thanks or reward?
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Post by jdl on May 15, 2018 9:15:33 GMT
Also, we need to remember that we see this from a very one-sided view. To the non-football interested public (which is most of them), the council probably seem to be doing the right thing - trying to make a little money when budgets are under intense pressure and council tax is severely capped. £20,000 would go a long way in a number of areas where there is real need at the moment, and the council could have asked for more. £20,000 probably seems about right to most people - it's a decent amount of spending money, but not too much to cause the club problems (after all, we've spent more than that already on the riverside stand project). Most people probably also think the club makes money (it certainly looks prosperous to outsiders), so why should the council subsidise it? The council should be looking after meals on wheels, social support, school, libraries, etc, not helping out football clubs.
Personally (and as both a Stones supporter and a local resident), although I'd prefer the land for free, I think that 20,000 quid is not a bad price, all things considered, and is actually about what I expected. Perhaps the answer is to not try to pressure the council (with the danger of that backfiring), but to try to raise the money (or some of it) ourselves? I'm not exactly flush with cash (I have to save up for my ST!), but I've managed to find a few quid in the past for club appeals, and would certainly be prepared to bung £50 or so into a west stand appeal. If enough of us did that, we could come up with half the money at least.
On a more general point, we talk about this being 'our club' but most of us are content to sit back and let O&T put their hands in their pockets every time. Perhaps it's time to really start to make this 'our' club? (No disrespect intended at all to the many fans over the years who have given so much time, effort and money to get the club where it is now - even nws!)
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2018 9:26:30 GMT
This is very true JDL - "Some of them just like being big fish in a (very) small pond, and they really enjoy situations like this, where they fleetingly have real power, as it feeds their egos".
I worked for a few years for a housing dept in London, and I found many councillors (not all) were in it very much for their own ends. Only raising their heads when it put them in a good light.
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Post by liburd on May 15, 2018 9:33:09 GMT
Whatever you think of the council and the motives of its councillors, compare it to the kind of situation we'd be in if the land were owned by private developers - they'd be under no obligation to even consider the wider interests of the team and the town, and would hold us to ransom.
I'll leave those more qualified than me to decide whether 20 large is a fair price, but it could be a lot worse.
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Post by Nick on May 15, 2018 9:40:29 GMT
Didn't supporters contribute a shade more than 20k to the cost of the EE stand ?
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Post by Benny on May 15, 2018 9:49:38 GMT
Maybe agree to pay £20,000, but try to negotiate a few more metres of land to future-proof that side of the stadium.
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Post by steveh21 on May 15, 2018 10:01:16 GMT
We need real evidence of how and why the council feel this piece of waste land is worth so much money.. or did they just pluck a number out of the air. They need to be more transparent and respond to Terry's complaints publicly. They do take public money after all... even if only expenses.
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Post by daveu on May 15, 2018 11:09:04 GMT
We need real evidence of how and why the council feel this piece of waste land is worth so much money.. or did they just pluck a number out of the air. They need to be more transparent and respond to Terry's complaints publicly. They do take public money after all... even if only expenses. That works both ways. Both parties have a starting valuation they believe to be correct. Why are we so sure our valuation is any more valid than the council's.
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