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Post by tooloow on May 9, 2014 9:14:10 GMT
Not sure what happens when a Premier League club is relegated - but they talk of "new clubs becoming eligible" for B teams, which means a potential extra 3 B teams every year? No discussion I can see on how they would be added to the pyramid (beyond expanding league 3 to 24 teams).
I cant see that relegated teams would be forced to give up their B Teams because they are talking about B Teams having their own purpose built stadia.
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Post by tooloow on May 9, 2014 10:27:07 GMT
Then there is the question of promotion - B teams in the new League 3 can be promoted as far as League 1 (assuming their parent club stays in the PL). These teams will consists of PL squad players - players capable of playing at PL level, but not currently good/consistent enough to be selected regularly. In other words, players of lower level PL or, at least, Championship quality. They will wipe the floor with Conference teams. So, in 5 years time, all the PL 'B' sides will have been promoted (and will eventually work their way up to League One, which will then become the 'half 'propper' sides/half reserve sides league' that the proposed League 3 is supposed to be) and League 3 will consist entirely of ex-League sides and clubs promoted from non-league football - in other words exactly like the existing Conference Premier! They also deal with this concern in the report - and point out that that has not been the case in Germany, Spain and others (page 67).
- A further concern could be the potential for a gradual erosion of the
competitive credibility of a league, if it is perceived that there are too many
B teams present. The overall experiences of other European leagues suggest
this not to be the case and in fact in most cases the contrary happens with the
presence of new teams providing competitive interest. - Similarly, there could be concerns raised over League 1 promotion if a
situation arises whereby the clubs occupying one or more of the playoff
and promotion places are B teams who are unable to be promoted. This
perceived issue, though sincere, should not be overstated, as experiences
in Spanish, German and other leagues with B teams don’t support it. This
situation has never happened in the current league structure in Germany and
has only happened twice in Spain since 1994-5. The idea that B teams would
automatically fill all the top places in the lower leagues or cluster together in
one league isn’t borne out by the experience in Germany, Spain and other
countries with B teams. [see exhibits [24a] and [24b]] Even so, we propose
there should be a review of the B team system four years after its introduction.
So for example, in Spain only 2 B Teams have made it to the ceiling (second tier). 14 others are in the 3rd tier (spread across the 4 regional divisions - with between 2 and 6 teams in each)
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Post by daveu on May 9, 2014 12:10:40 GMT
I'm not sure this report is intended as a blueprint for English football for the next however many years. To me it reads more as a way of putting ideas out there for discussion. Surely Greg Dyke must be aware that these proposals serve no-one but the premier league and effectively turn the football league back into the closed shop it was before automatic promotion and relegation from the conference was introduced.
Heathside, the only part of your post I disagree with is the part about stopping clubs refusing promotion. Surely if a club is financially stable at the level it's at, but doesn't feel that it will be able to manage financially at a higher level, it shouldn't be forced to take promotion however many times it finishes top of it's league. Maybe the answer is that any club that reaches the quarter final stage of the vase 3 years in succession, moves up to the FA Trophy for the next three years.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 13:20:28 GMT
Perhaps we stop reading too much into statements and potentially misinterpreting material.
Until such time as we are in a position of promotion and therefore able to properly challenge the ruling then we will not know nor can anyone say what the outcome will be. Therefore it follows that we as a club continue with current policy until such time as 3g is accepted or all avenues for acceptance are exhausted.
Making any assumptions before then such as ripping up the 3g would be beyond futile.
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Post by lucky1969 on May 9, 2014 14:18:43 GMT
Wasn't the recently much vaunted Under 21's League set up to achieve exactly what the FA are targeting to achieve now? Whether that has been a success or not (clearly not in my opinion) it certainly caused much less disruption. It is not necessary to tinker too much with the existing system of players being loaned out and extending the Academies to 21 years of age if the coaching standards issue is addressed properly
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Post by ontheup on May 9, 2014 14:49:44 GMT
Seems to be a lot of "hot air" surrounding this report (rightly so) but given the timing of the release isn't it GD making the excuses before our World Cup failure?
It's an insurance policy, in 10 years time when we still haven't got beyond the QFs of anything, he can turn round and say, "Well, if my original plans had been implemented.."
As for our situation, no change as far as I'm concerned......we carry on building a squad to challenge next year, us as fans continue to get behind the team, and our owners continue to run a sustainable Football Club.
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Post by frankinstone on May 9, 2014 15:55:47 GMT
I think the point is the premier reserve league is not "real competitive football". My idea would be allow Premier league sides to send there younfer players to lower league sides on a temporary basis to play for them for real competitive football. It's radical I know younger English players ?? |
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Post by pmh on May 9, 2014 16:37:12 GMT
I'd doubt it would be PL reserves side,it would be a cheap way of blooding the PL academy boys with out loaning them out.Risky asking some bbb 10/20/30 million pound player coming back from an injury,or hoping to regain some lost form to play on some ploughed field of a pitch and see him get hacked down by some journeyman non league player.
They want the promotion to the football league stopped or severely slowed down,they think they have to many league clubs in the conference,league 2 clubs will love this new idea.
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Post by jdl on May 9, 2014 19:11:52 GMT
Then there is the question of promotion - B teams in the new League 3 can be promoted as far as League 1 (assuming their parent club stays in the PL). These teams will consists of PL squad players - players capable of playing at PL level, but not currently good/consistent enough to be selected regularly. In other words, players of lower level PL or, at least, Championship quality. They will wipe the floor with Conference teams. So, in 5 years time, all the PL 'B' sides will have been promoted (and will eventually work their way up to League One, which will then become the 'half 'propper' sides/half reserve sides league' that the proposed League 3 is supposed to be) and League 3 will consist entirely of ex-League sides and clubs promoted from non-league football - in other words exactly like the existing Conference Premier! They also deal with this concern in the report - and point out that that has not been the case in Germany, Spain and others (page 67).
- A further concern could be the potential for a gradual erosion of the
competitive credibility of a league, if it is perceived that there are too many
B teams present. The overall experiences of other European leagues suggest
this not to be the case and in fact in most cases the contrary happens with the
presence of new teams providing competitive interest. - Similarly, there could be concerns raised over League 1 promotion if a
situation arises whereby the clubs occupying one or more of the playoff
and promotion places are B teams who are unable to be promoted. This
perceived issue, though sincere, should not be overstated, as experiences
in Spanish, German and other leagues with B teams don’t support it. This
situation has never happened in the current league structure in Germany and
has only happened twice in Spain since 1994-5. The idea that B teams would
automatically fill all the top places in the lower leagues or cluster together in
one league isn’t borne out by the experience in Germany, Spain and other
countries with B teams. [see exhibits [24a] and [24b]] Even so, we propose
there should be a review of the B team system four years after its introduction.
So for example, in Spain only 2 B Teams have made it to the ceiling (second tier). 14 others are in the 3rd tier (spread across the 4 regional divisions - with between 2 and 6 teams in each)
Interesting stuff, tooloow, but I'm not at all sure that the situation in other countries is particularly relevant to the football structure (etc) in England. Do they have such a developed non-league as us, and the equivalent of our football pyramid, for a start? And the phrase "Germany, Spain and others" bothers me - the German and Spanish football leagues (etc) are hardly similar to each other, and who exactly are these 'others'? I'm afraid the whole thing strikes me as the sort of madness only someone who knows very little about football (and nothing at all about being a supporter) could dream up. OK, so some footballers were involved, but, as much as I cherish my memories of Rio Ferdinand at Upton Park, he's never struck me as being an expert on league structures, etc. The answer to the lack of English football talent is to force the top clubs to generate more native talent in their academies, and then force them to let this talent actually play in the first team - not faff about with the structure of the league, and certainly not at the expense of the non-league set-up. |
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Post by headstone on May 10, 2014 10:00:47 GMT
And were there any women involved in the preparation of the FA report? How can it be put forward as representative if not?
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Post by mikeking on May 10, 2014 13:23:57 GMT
You only have to look at the top teams acadamys to find why there is limited english talent. My grandson played against Arsenals acadamy a few years ago at under 8s for Millwall. Of the 9 boys produced by Arsenal only 1 was English the rest were French. The decline of Liverpool which always had a backbone of Scousers started with Benitez and an influx of Spanish players brought into the acadamys. I dont often agree with Mr Wenger but he has it right when he says that at a young age it is what they are taught in training that gives players the edge and not loads of competetive games. We need more talented coaches at the top end but it costs 3.5k to get the top badge but only £400 in Spain hence the reason we have 1100 coaches and Spain 7000. Speaks for itself.
Also until we get someone who understands football from the grassroots upwards, understands tradition and fans we will stand still. I am not sure Mr Dyke fits this bill just look at who he selected for his panel, Wilkinson, Mills, Ferdinand ? He needs to speak to supporters to get the most balanced view and by that I dont mean premiership most of whom are blinkered by money just like thier teams and dont give damn about the England team.
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Post by Sennockian69 on May 10, 2014 13:28:51 GMT
Bonkers indeed they will be wanting to play on grass next. How long did it take to get a pyramid system ? This is all for the benefit of the big boys ? If you want to improve the number of english players we must stop the influx of ordinary journey man players from abroad, foreign owners who have no consideration for fans and tradition, and get some proper english managers and coaches that send teams out to win by playing positive, exciting, attacking football. 3g pitches where kids can be taught the skills they need, the time should be spent with a bias towards skills training rather than game after game. Our kids are burnt out before they peak if they are good they can end up playing for club, school, district, kent, soccer elite, psa and when they get home they go down the field with thier mates. Players on 300k moan if they have 2 games a week some of our kids can end up playing 3 games in a weekend at a critical stage of thier physical development. Some talking points please debate ! I believe the ubiquitous occurence of these players is a market response to the price charged by lower league clubs for average players. I wonder if the agents , clubs that asked for these ridiculous prices knew what the consequences would be all those years ago. |
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Post by Sennockian69 on May 10, 2014 13:40:50 GMT
"But what about the idea of giving the PL reserve sides some real, competitive football? Well, here's a radical suggestion - form a PL reserve league. That way, the PL standard teams get to play regular, meaningful, competitive games against other PL standard teams every week. Now why has no one thought of that?" Thats too sensible John! There was a Premier League reserve league a few years ago. It should be brought back along with the Football Combination. Should never have got rid of it. They would rather disrupt the pyramid that people worked so hard to achieve in the first place. Have you ever wondered why the reserve league was discontinued. Oh the fans were not engaged in sufficient numbers. Do you think watching Stoke B will be an attractive fixture to see ?  |
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Post by Sennockian69 on May 10, 2014 13:43:10 GMT
There's been a lot of comment about limiting the number of foreign players in the Premier League, which seems to suggest that England were world beaters in the 70s and 80s when there were pretty much no overseas players playing here. Anyone recall those golden days? It's also been suggested that this League 3 would be good because it would give lads a chance to "toughen up". Somehow I doubt the coaching emphasis in other countries is dedicated to toughening up players, or teaching them how to belt the ball and run after it, like it so often seems to be here. We wouldn't need to limit the number of overseas players if we were producing talent with the requisite skills and with a realistic expectation of what they should be paid. It might help if, instead of having Premier League B teams, there was some sort of decent return for lower league clubs when they develop players that move to Premier League clubs. I also wonder if the figures for UEFA Elite qualified coaches might shed light on why we aren't producing enough good players of our own. Let's take a look (figures from Oct 2013): Spain 12,700 Germany 5,500 England 1,161 Solution simples - better coaching !  |
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Post by Sennockian69 on May 10, 2014 13:47:04 GMT
I'm not sure this report is intended as a blueprint for English football for the next however many years. To me it reads more as a way of putting ideas out there for discussion. Surely Greg Dyke must be aware that these proposals serve no-one but the premier league and effectively turn the football league back into the closed shop it was before automatic promotion and relegation from the conference was introduced. Heathside, the only part of your post I disagree with is the part about stopping clubs refusing promotion. Surely if a club is financially stable at the level it's at, but doesn't feel that it will be able to manage financially at a higher level, it shouldn't be forced to take promotion however many times it finishes top of it's league. Maybe the answer is that any club that reaches the quarter final stage of the vase 3 years in succession, moves up to the FA Trophy for the next three years. Good suggestion - Spennymoor - are taking the piss - they must play in the FA Trophy as their main aim is to play at Wembley each season. |
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