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Post by Nick on Oct 6, 2019 15:16:21 GMT
Not exactly 'a scoop' Mr Nick2.
You won't need reassurance from nws
This old chestnut has been doing the rounds for at least 20 years.
But you already know that !
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Post by jdl on Oct 6, 2019 21:17:29 GMT
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Post by shamstone on Oct 6, 2019 21:44:42 GMT
Ain’t that been happening on the M20 here for years even before Brexit was a ‘word’
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Post by nws on Oct 7, 2019 7:26:00 GMT
I notice that the EU are considering removing each countries veto ... probably because if we are forced to stay in the EU we intend to use our veto to cause chaos ... but again this is probably a lie .... and not a fact ... I will agree we should stay in EU provided NWS can 100% confirm that the UK will never have our veto removed Which veto are you referring to? If I 100 per cent guarantee a veto from EU policy it will be as honest as saying we pay 350m to the EU every week, there is a simple technological solution to the Iris border problem, we can have zero tariffs with the EU under GATT 24 or that an Isle of Man kipper's packaging is problematic because of the EU. I respectfully note that I do not wish to join the charlatans and liars that make such claims. Anyway, let me know which veto you refer to.
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Post by nws on Oct 7, 2019 7:29:04 GMT
Add in customs duties and shout hallelujah for free trade capitalism😂😂😉
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Post by nws on Oct 8, 2019 9:15:00 GMT
I notice that the EU are considering removing each countries veto ... probably because if we are forced to stay in the EU we intend to use our veto to cause chaos ... but again this is probably a lie .... and not a fact ... I will agree we should stay in EU provided NWS can 100% confirm that the UK will never have our veto removed Which veto are you referring to? If I 100 per cent guarantee a veto from EU policy it will be as honest as saying we pay 350m to the EU every week, there is a simple technological solution to the Iris border problem, we can have zero tariffs with the EU under GATT 24 or that an Isle of Man kipper's packaging is problematic because of the EU. I respectfully note that I do not wish to join the charlatans and liars that make such claims. Anyway, let me know which veto you refer to. Almost predictably my simple question is met with silence. I think you may be referring to a plan to have qualified majority voting on tax policy which is very different to removing vetoes on everything. Obviously, that would leave the UK government free to make mischief by using it's veto on other things such as the budget or the EU army etc (just mirroring Jacob Rees Moggs ideas there). So the central idea you present is not true. I hope that settles you down and happy in the idea that a few individuals can cause chaos in 27 countries simply because their own Parliament hasn't voted the way they want it to. I do love the grown up and non-bullying attitude of those that wish to use vetoes in such a way. Personally, I'm amazed that those individuals that campaigned on a basis of the EU bullying us and holding all our sovereignty can now achieve such a thing. Where did all this power spring from?
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Post by porkystone on Oct 8, 2019 9:59:46 GMT
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Post by 61666 on Oct 8, 2019 10:11:32 GMT
With the Institute For Fiscal Studies now predicting the need for massive borrowing and a return to austerity in the event of no deal, where does this leave government bribery, sorry, spending programmes? Either the government are extremely stupid ( unlikely with all their advisors), or they knew all along this would happen, which simply takes us back to the premise that they are only persuing brexit for personal gain. Note to Leave voters: Nicky Morgan voted remain originally, but is now in favour of a no deal. If it is ok for her to change her mind, why then shouldn't we have another referendum?
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Post by Nick on Oct 8, 2019 10:36:23 GMT
Ms Morgan stated as recently as 14th September (BBC Breakfast) that she would still vote Remain in the event of a second referendum
But it is evident that her views has 'evolved', a couple of weeks ago to leaving the EU with a deal and this week to leaving the EU without a deal.
Well, everyone has a right to 'change their minds', particularly when they discover which side their bread is buttered.
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Post by 61666 on Oct 8, 2019 10:53:17 GMT
Unless you voted Remain that is, because, clearly (in the political crap speak sense), Leave won. Deep sigh...
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Post by 61666 on Oct 8, 2019 11:15:55 GMT
Meanwhile Donald Trump threatens to 'destroy the Turkish economy', which he boasts to have already done before, if they interfere with the Kurds. We know that Buck Foris is not to be trusted, but Agent Orange takes this to stratospheric levels. He says he want the USA out of foreign disputes, but persists in meddling everywhere he thinks he can bully his way to an advantage. All of which makes a no deal brexit alliance with Uncle Sam ever more questionable - unless you are in the Tory hierarchy and stand to make (another) shitload of money that is...
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Post by jdl on Oct 8, 2019 12:25:02 GMT
None of this is about Europe any more - assuming that it ever was.
The anti-EU movement was a small minority before 2016, mostly just a thorn in the side of Tory PMs. Cameron tried to silence them for a while by having a referendum - he thought they'd lose and shut up for a while. But the hard-right/populists saw their chance to harness the anger of the millions left behind by the collapse of manufacturing, and turned the anti-EU vote into and anti-'elite' movement - helped by careerists like Johnson, who saw it as a chance to get to be PM quicker.
Then, when it turned out to be impossible to leave the EU, those same dark forces (ably assisted by our overwhelmingly right-wing press) carefully twisted people's anger and confusion into a 'them and us' situation, where being pro-Brexit became an identity, and people came to see any attempt to stop or moderate Brexit as against them personally. The facts of the case became irrelevant - all that mattered was which side you identified with.
So now we've reached the stage where the most arrogant and incompetent PM in history leads a party that is 15 points clear in the polls, and a large number of our fellow citizens, most of whom have little or no understanding of the situation, have been persuaded that it's better to screw the economy completely and to suffer a great deal personally (most Leavers will get hit a lot harder than most Remainers) than let 'the other side' win. Their 'politics' no longer make any sense at all, but to them it has become personal - belief, rather than sense. It is as crazy - and destructive - as a religious divide.
And why have the people behind Brexit done all this - the Cummings, Farages, Bannons, etc? Do they care that much about the EU? In a few cases yes, but mostly it's just a means to an end. And that end is a small state, low tax, bare minimum benefits, few rights, authoritarian hell. With the few at the top (let's call them the 'elite') doing very well, and the rest of us totally fucked.
Johnson knows perfectly well that his hastily cobbled together 'plan' will get rejected. He knows perfectly well that the EU won't be fazed by all his talk of a no-deal Brexit, do or die - they know he's bluffing. All this is being done for one simple purpose - to bring about an election, and to make sure he wins it. The EU will be blamed for the failure of Brexit, Labour will be blamed for just about everything, and (he hopes) masses of people will vote anti-'elite' (but not the real elite that he is part of, of course) in their anger that 'their side' have been prevented from wining by the "traitors".
The dark powers behind the Bulk will then have 5 years to start taking apart our welfare state and liberal democracy. And a hell of a lot can be achieved in just 5 years.
Brexit? The facts won't be changed by an election; we still won't be able to leave without sacrificing Northern Ireland. But they won't care about that. Who the f**k cares about the Irish anyway? Who cares if a few hundred, even a few thousand, people get shot, blown up or knee-capped? And if it turns into a terror campaign on the mainland, so much the better - there's nothing like a 'war on terror' to help you take people's rights away and bring in emergency powers...
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Post by davec on Oct 8, 2019 13:37:37 GMT
None of this is about Europe any more - assuming that it ever was. The anti-EU movement was a small minority before 2016, mostly just a thorn in the side of Tory PMs. Cameron tried to silence them for a while by having a referendum - he thought they'd lose and shut up for a while. But the hard-right/populists saw their chance to harness the anger of the millions left behind by the collapse of manufacturing, and turned the anti-EU vote into and anti-'elite' movement - helped by careerists like Johnson, who saw it as a chance to get to be PM quicker. Then, when it turned out to be impossible to leave the EU, those same dark forces (ably assisted by our overwhelmingly right-wing press) carefully twisted people's anger and confusion into a 'them and us' situation, where being pro-Brexit became an identity, and people came to see any attempt to stop or moderate Brexit as against them personally. The facts of the case became irrelevant - all that mattered was which side you identified with. So now we've reached the stage where the most arrogant and incompetent PM in history leads a party that is 15 points clear in the polls, and a large number of our fellow citizens, most of whom have little or no understanding of the situation, have been persuaded that it's better to screw the economy completely and to suffer a great deal personally (most Leavers will get hit a lot harder than most Remainers) than let 'the other side' win. Their 'politics' no longer make any sense at all, but to them it has become personal - belief, rather than sense. It is as crazy - and destructive - as a religious divide. And why have the people behind Brexit done all this - the Cummings, Farages, Bannons, etc? Do they care that much about the EU? In a few cases yes, but mostly it's just a means to an end. And that end is a small state, low tax, bare minimum benefits, few rights, authoritarian hell. With the few at the top (let's call them the 'elite') doing very well, and the rest of us totally fucked. Johnson knows perfectly well that his hastily cobbled together 'plan' will get rejected. He knows perfectly well that the EU won't be fazed by all his talk of a no-deal Brexit, do or die - they know he's bluffing. All this is being done for one simple purpose - to bring about an election, and to make sure he wins it. The EU will be blamed for the failure of Brexit, Labour will be blamed for just about everything, and (he hopes) masses of people will vote anti-'elite' (but not the real elite that he is part of, of course) in their anger that 'their side' have been prevented from wining by the "traitors". The dark powers behind the Bulk will then have 5 years to start taking apart our welfare state and liberal democracy. And a hell of a lot can be achieved in just 5 years. Brexit? The facts won't be changed by an election; we still won't be able to leave without sacrificing Northern Ireland. But they won't care about that. Who the f**k cares about the Irish anyway? Who cares if a few hundred, even a few thousand, people get shot, blown up or knee-capped? And if it turns into a terror campaign on the mainland, so much the better - there's nothing like a 'war on terror' to help you take people's rights away and bring in emergency powers... Stop sitting on the fence and tell us how you feel
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Post by 61666 on Oct 8, 2019 14:08:50 GMT
The most appalling thing about it all is that Buck Foris does indeed seem to be favoured by the electorate and, almost worse, they are not put off by Cove the Gunt either. Can only surmise it is 'just want brexit to go away' brigade. Can only repeat that now matter how we leave, brexit is certainly not going away. It will be years getting it sorted. Remain is the only way to get rid.
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Post by pigbag on Oct 8, 2019 15:32:02 GMT
The Irish border was a check point for terrorism. The Boris solution deals with trade and is not even on the border. The EU reject all solutions but fail to come up with any ideas of their own. 31st October we come out with no deal. The Eu will then erect border posts. I wonder how quickly they will then come up with a solution not much different to Boris proposal. The truth is the EU see us as a pain in the bum and do not want a deal but they also want to make life difficult to deter Italy, Hungary and others from leaving. Norway is not in the EU but has an open border in exchange for an AGREEMENT to follow EU rules - not thought to be legally binding. Boris offered something similar for Ireland but it was rejected.
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