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Post by mikeking on Apr 27, 2016 12:41:28 GMT
I think as football fans we should pay tribute to the families of the Hillsborough 96 for the strength, determination, character for not only clearing the names of their precious loved ones but also for exposing the establishment cover ups that tarnished the victims for the last 27 years. May those fellow fans who lost their lives now rest in peace knowing that their loss was not in vain and the world may change, as there will no longer be a place to hide for those responsible for that day or any future incidents of this nature.
I am sure someone will say this is on the wrong thread, but this is football and who knows it could effect us all.
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Post by nws on Apr 27, 2016 12:52:15 GMT
I agree, Mike. I applaud the tenacity these people have shown in pursuing this. While, undoubtably, a small burden of responsibility must rest with those that turned up without tickets and created congestion problems outside the ground, the main bulk of blame has to be on those that 'controlled' operations so abjectly poorly. The lengths that were gone to cover things up, including wild, unsubstantiated and untrue media claims were an embarrassment to all concerned and our society as a whole.
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Post by Nick on Apr 27, 2016 13:54:36 GMT
and agree with mike/nws as a fan of the gooners at the time, I witnessed plenty of crowd behaviour which put other fans at risk given Liverpool's massed and passionate following, it was a tragedy waiting to happen it could equally have happened to other clubs in other stadiums there is no longer any doubt that policing at the match was terrible the policing command was pathetic but the actions of officers on the ground were hardly any better even the ambulance service failed at every level unforgivable is the aftermath which has seen years of institutional cover-up, distortions and lies. and it has been capped off by a level of media reporting and analysis that was prejudiced, distorted and inaccurate embarrassing and shameful to all concerned
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Post by russc on Apr 27, 2016 14:33:19 GMT
...a small burden of responsibility must rest with those that turned up without tickets and created congestion problems outside the ground... Sorry Adrian, but I think you may be guilty of repeating something because it was the popular theory for much of the last 27 years. A good deal of evidence was presented to the recent inquiry that refutes the idea that ticketless fans turned up in numbers and caused an issue. Many ticketed fans turned up late, but this was to some extent because of the lack of special trains and traffic issues between Liverpool and Sheffield. It has been estimated that fewer people were in the Leppings Lane end than the number of tickets sold, which is not consistent with the large numbers of ticketless fans theory
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Post by jt on Apr 27, 2016 15:24:16 GMT
Speaking as someone who has policed at every major stadium in London things have changed massively for the better from that point of view. Senior management on that day was atrocious and David Duckenfield finally admitted that he was completely out of his depth. I have no doubt that there was a massive cover up due to his initial lies. I think he has now realised that the easiest thing to do is lie. The hardest thing is to keep it up. I hope now that there is a further investigation as to how the police did manage to cover things up including claims officers were asked to omit evidence on the instructions of senior officers. It's a shame Duckenfield was able to retire on a massive pension.
As for the murdoch publications, I really am still at a loss as to why they printed what they did then and to totally ignore it now.
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Post by soulstone on Apr 27, 2016 16:48:48 GMT
I am still at a loss as to why people still buy The Sun.
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Post by nws on Apr 27, 2016 16:50:47 GMT
...a small burden of responsibility must rest with those that turned up without tickets and created congestion problems outside the ground... Sorry Adrian, but I think you may be guilty of repeating something because it was the popular theory for much of the last 27 years. A good deal of evidence was presented to the recent inquiry that refutes the idea that ticketless fans turned up in numbers and caused an issue. Many ticketed fans turned up late, but this was to some extent because of the lack of special trains and traffic issues between Liverpool and Sheffield. It has been estimated that fewer people were in the Leppings Lane end than the number of tickets sold, which is not consistent with the large numbers of ticketless fans theory Fair enough. That was something I gleaned from a BBC documentary years ago. If it is not true then I take it back. I do remember the point being made that part of the problem was that everyone that came in late headed straight for the central entrance to the stand and if some had gone to the side entrances then there would have been no crush. TBF Evidence given by a turnstile operator to the inquest in 2014 was saying there were ticketless fans. However, I have now read the HSE stuff about it and it tallies with what you say. I think David Duckenfield should have his pension removed and he should live on a bare minimum pension. A disgraceful man!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 20:18:26 GMT
In January 1989 I went to Sheffield Wednesday v Liverpool with a friend. Like thousands of people our age, woolyback Liverpool fans enjoying a day out. I was so jealous when my friend said she'd got a ticket for the semi final! We had been to the 5th round match together at Hull, queueing all afternoon for tickets. I was distraught until I got through to her mum who knew she had a seat down the side and was safe and sound. But she saw things that day nobody should, let alone at a sporting event. A real feeling it could easily have been me or her. RIP the 96.
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Post by dayornight on Apr 27, 2016 20:42:57 GMT
Theres no doubt the police are guilty of massive errors on the day. But I would like to know still, who decided which ends the different clubs were given that day. I was there in 1981 at the Spurs v Wolves semi final, the same thing nearly happened to us that day (anyone who doubts this have a look at the you tube footage). So what I still don't understand all these years later, is why give the smaller end, to the bigger clubs. They never learnt the lessons of that day and 96 souls lost their lives because of the same gross incompetence years later. Liverpool and Tottenhams support is always going to dwarf that of Notts Forest and Wolves, they only have to look at average attendance and size of away support at average games, let alone cup semi finals. So if prosecutions follow, the people who made that decision should be in the dock with the police.
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Post by jdl on Apr 27, 2016 21:10:10 GMT
Anyone who experienced the terraces, pens and fences of those days knows how dangerous they could be - any one of us could have been one of those 96.
The Sun should be shamed into non-existence.
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Post by nws on Apr 27, 2016 22:29:43 GMT
I can only echo the last three posts. I went to Arsenal v Everton league cup semi final the season before Hillsborough and there was 55,000 in Highbury. It was dangerously packed with excitable Arsenal fans jumping about everywhere on the North Bank. When I gt back from it I commented that something bad would happen if they did not start paying attention to how many people went into areas of grounds. I even suggested that there should be turnstiles that switched off automatically once a certain number went through (not that that would have changed much about Hillsborough).
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Post by stainese on Apr 28, 2016 4:29:40 GMT
Anyone who experienced the terraces, pens and fences of those days knows how dangerous they could be - any one of us could have been one of those 96. The Sun should be shamed into non-existence. I think we all know or can gather that gutter press like the sun has no shame
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Post by steveh21 on Apr 28, 2016 7:41:02 GMT
The Sun should never have run that story but remember it was not written on a whim. It was based on police information given to the newspaper. The police have so much to answer for and I hope we see some prosecutions. Rip the 96... so glad their families carried on fighting and exposed the police cover up.
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Post by nws on Apr 28, 2016 8:15:08 GMT
Not all police were involved. I believe some raised concerns and surprise that their original statements were 'doctored'.
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Post by moley on Apr 28, 2016 9:28:27 GMT
With regard to the pensions issue
Firstly those involved will need to have successful prosecutions taken out against them which need to result in a conviction and be deemed injurious to the reputation of the force or will lead to a loss of confidence in the service
Then the Chief Constable will need to apply to the Home Secretary for part of the pension to be forfeit, the officer concerned is then served with notice to which the relevant officer or ex-officer has the right of appeal
I wish the Hillsborough Support Group good luck, it is a long process
See the Police Pension Regulations 1987, K5(4) applies in this case
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