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Post by Fed up with PC views only on Apr 3, 2020 6:51:28 GMT
The danger with forums is that discussions like this become polarised - for or against, whatever topic is under discussion. When in fact, in most cases, the situation is much more complex than that. And this discussion is a good illustration of this. For instance, part-time did us fine right up to promotion to the NL, so I tend to agree with those who say it is the right approach now we are one step back down again. But, on the other hand, I don't really see part-time working in the NL. So our problem isn't just which way we go, but how do we handle the transition from one to the other. And, of course, as we found out so painfully, during that transition you go from having the best part-timers available, to having to pick from the dregs of full-time. Hoping that a mixture of young lads on their way up, older players dropping down the divisions, and a core of journeymen not good enough for the EFL, will somehow magically blend into a decent team. So, my choice for now would be what we had at this level before - part-time. And my ideal choice for NL would be 'full-time' - although somehow, magically, with much better players. But how you make that transition, and how you successfully manage to create a decent team out of the players that are available, without much bigger gates or a sugar daddy, I have absolutely no idea. Very wise words indeed. I have been criticised for being a polarised supporter of PT in NLS because I just couldn't justify to myself paying FT wages in NLS, but yes, NL seems to be a FT league, so the art would be in getting the transition right. Right now, though, even getting a new season of any kind will be good!
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Post by steveh21 on Apr 3, 2020 7:12:53 GMT
Looks like there is actually a lot of agreement on this thread. PT in a part time league (NLS) and Full Time in full time league (NL).
And as was mentioned it ultimately comes down to player recruitment, tactics and man-management skills whether you get value for money - whatever the budget and training schedule.
We had the bizarre situation this season where we were FT in PT league but the club knew promotion this season would have been a potential financial headache for Stones..
Is Hak the man??? We will find out.
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Post by Dan on Apr 3, 2020 7:52:43 GMT
Cannot justify paying full time wages in the NLS ? The whole point is that the owners and management team felt that this would give us the best chance of recruiting quality players to press for a promotion spot. Despite the excuses we have heard the 'fact' remains that individuals and the team came up short and that includes our management team. There is no benefit at all imo in going part time other than cutting the wages bill. Whether we are F/T or P/T the Team Manager has to be astute with his recruitment and then demonstrate the nous the get individuals to play to their full potential. Has Hak done enough to prove he us worthy of the task ahead ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 8:24:44 GMT
I can't see the financial model of football below the Championship being anything like it was before.
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Post by steveh21 on Apr 3, 2020 8:37:10 GMT
Oliver has long argued for financial fair play rules in the NL.. These would be great for us if the rules were based on crowds and legitimate turnover from sponsorship/3G revenue etc and did not allow rich owners to use clubs as toys.
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Post by Fed up with PC views only on Apr 3, 2020 10:07:56 GMT
Cannot justify paying full time wages in the NLS ? The whole point is that the owners and management team felt that this would give us the best chance of recruiting quality players to press for a promotion spot. Despite the excuses we have heard the 'fact' remains that individuals and the team came up short and that includes our management team. There is no benefit at all imo in going part time other than cutting the wages bill. Whether we are F/T or P/T the Team Manager has to be astute with his recruitment and then demonstrate the nous the get individuals to play to their full potential. Has Hak done enough to prove he us worthy of the task ahead ? No, Hak hasn't really done enough either with us, or before us, to give strong confidence that he can do it, but the owners have faith in him, he has been a great ambassador for the club in the current crisis, and he may well be inspired by a) having to follow on from JS2 and b) becoming a part of the fabric of the club. On that basis my view would be give him a chance, if indeed he can afford to stay with us on whatever wage we can afford to pay him. In Hak we trust.
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Post by Nick on Apr 3, 2020 10:37:18 GMT
I did smile at your last point, because you say you do, but you don't really You state that in your opinion he hasn't done enough before joining the Stones, nor at his time with the club. It's one of those moments when we agree and yet the owners have enough confidence in him. I must admit to liking the guy on a first hand basis and that applies to other mates who have spoken to him too. But together with John Still, the pair of them def under-achieved 'last season'. Too many recruits were not good enough and some of the players who did ok were in and out. It just isn't a case of whether a part time set up would have produced better results as you so often argued. Hopefully we will be able to keep 6/7 of the better players from last season and then add some quality part timers. This time it will be down to Hak rather than John. It's a big ask.
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Post by pigbag on Apr 3, 2020 11:57:34 GMT
Mention was made of Dartford being PT. Is this true? Has Elliot Romain one of the top scorers in the league gone PT?
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Post by La femme de Vic Jobson on Apr 3, 2020 12:01:55 GMT
Mention was made of Dartford being PT. Is this true? Has Elliot Romain one of the top scorers in the league gone PT? Think they were always part-time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 13:25:14 GMT
Try again in a different direction ? During the past few years the club has recruited the best players it could on the budget available. So we will now have a substantially reduced budget and hey presto we will automatically recruit higher calibre players because we are going to pay them less. Follow that logic through and maybe the best team will be one that charges players to play. Believe it or not there is some logic to it, and it partly explains why as one of the few full-time sides in NLS we had a mediocre season. The fact is, many decent players do not want to play football full time. Some of them have good jobs outside of football that bring in a decent income and, crucially, will still be there for them in a few years time when full-time football might not be. Full-time football is a risky career for those on the fringes of being good enough to play professionally at the lowest level where that is possible. A good example would be Tom Mills, who left us because he didn't want to go full-time when we got promoted to the NL. There are more 'Tom Mills' around that you perhaps realise.
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Post by jackster on Apr 3, 2020 15:11:56 GMT
That's great to hear Jayser, by the way how is Tom Mills doing now ?
How may current examples can you give of Kent based P/T players we could recruit who are better than our current crop ?
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Post by Fed up with PC views only on Apr 3, 2020 15:18:07 GMT
I did smile at your last point, because you say you do, but you don't really You state that in your opinion he hasn't done enough before joining the Stones, nor at his time with the club. It's one of those moments when we agree and yet the owners have enough confidence in him. I must admit to liking the guy on a first hand basis and that applies to other mates who have spoken to him too. But together with John Still, the pair of them def under-achieved 'last season'. Too many recruits were not good enough and some of the players who did ok were in and out. It just isn't a case of whether a part time set up would have produced better results as you so often argued. Hopefully we will be able to keep 6/7 of the better players from last season and then add some quality part timers. This time it will be down to Hak rather than John. It's a big ask. I am truly trusting in Hak, Nick as I believe he has fallen in love with the club and am hoping that it will make him into a better Manager. I really hope the guy becomes a Stones legend. To be any other way would be wrong when he is apparently a nice guy and the owners back him. We have to give him a chance. Despite my forum name!
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Post by jdl on Apr 4, 2020 0:53:52 GMT
Mention was made of Dartford being PT. Is this true? Has Elliot Romain one of the top scorers in the league gone PT? Think they were always part-time. The logic of the situation dictates that part-time players can't (easily) play in a full-time team because of the training and travelling requirements. But full-time players can easily play for a part-time team - as long as the money is good enough. Perhaps that's the 'secret' of NS to NL transition? Build a PT side good enough to get promotion, then stay PT, retain the best of the PT players, but bring in some key full-timers. Then delevop the team to full-time over a number of seasons, as money/progress allows. That way you don't run into the problems we had with the abrupt transition to FT. (Training would be a problem, of course, but nothing that couldn't be got round.) The only real difficulty I can see with this approach is that we probably couldn't afford it.
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Post by 61666 on Apr 4, 2020 7:18:24 GMT
I wonder what affordable/sustainable really looks like in football? Probably not applicable in the PL or Championship, as so much of their income is from TV handouts - though am happy to be enlightened. In L1 & 2, one assumes there must be some clubs who live within their means, which for the he likes of say, Sunderland, would be greater than Carlisle, for example, because of their greater attendance. Start stripping away the subsidies put in by owners (for day to day running, as opposed to long term investment) and how many clubs are left truly living within their means? Maybe as you go further down the pyramid, there are more, especially at grassroots/amateur level. Probably the sort of research needed to get a PhD, but am guessing there won't be many in NLS/N and above.
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Post by jdl on Apr 4, 2020 11:44:57 GMT
I wonder what affordable/sustainable really looks like in football? Probably not applicable in the PL or Championship, as so much of their income is from TV handouts - though am happy to be enlightened. In L1 & 2, one assumes there must be some clubs who live within their means, which for the he likes of say, Sunderland, would be greater than Carlisle, for example, because of their greater attendance. Start stripping away the subsidies put in by owners (for day to day running, as opposed to long term investment) and how many clubs are left truly living within their means? Maybe as you go further down the pyramid, there are more, especially at grassroots/amateur level. Probably the sort of research needed to get a PhD, but am guessing there won't be many in NLS/N and above. Carlisle is one of 'my teams', as a long-term visitor to the city in my mis-spent youth, so one of the few cities/EFL teams I know something about. And my gut feel is that they probably are pretty much sustainable. They are very much an 'old-school' club - with decent, and reliable, gates (there not being another pro club around for miles!) and a level of awareness and support in the general population that would be the envy of many clubs. And, apart from the madness of the Knighton era (from which they at least got a nice new stand), they are also not a club that chucks money at players or ground improvements. But I suspect that they are representative of an increasingly small number of EFL clubs. With luck, this lockdown/virus (especially if it continues to have an impact into next season) will give the EFL the shakeup it so badly needs, with a lot of very overdue financial pigeons coming home to roost. I'm not wishing failure on any club (with one possible exception - actually, make that two), but I forsee a much more realistic Football League in the future, where clubs think about their fans and delivering decent football, more than achieving impossible dreams. Although, I fear this is probably just wishful thinking.
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