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Post by royalstone on Sept 8, 2019 10:24:31 GMT
Some pretty shoddy journalism in there. We didn't take over a local Junior side, the youth team were already part of the club. There wasn't even a team called Maidstone Invicta at the time. The name was adopted because we weren't allowed to continue as United. We did effectively take over a junior side much later when we amalgamated with South Park Rangers but we were already an established Isthmian League club by then. Shoddy journalism in this day and age! Surely not? Unfortunately most journalists these days don't let good research and accurate reporting of facts get in the way of a good story. One of the reasons we have Trump, Boris and Brexit is because even reasonably intelligent people have difficulty seeing the true picture through all the BS. Sorry, wrong section.
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Post by jdl on Sept 8, 2019 10:25:11 GMT
I'll do a similar analysis of the fate of the League teams who got relegated to the Conference when I get time. Comparing the two is quite interesting.
Anyone know how to do tables on here? I could have posted a lot more info on these clubs, but this awful basic text format makes it very difficult.
If anyone's interested, I have a spreadsheet that details the fate of every club that's ever played in the Conference. There's a hell of a lot of them, so it's a big s/s, but the format is very simple, so it's easy to use. You'll need a big screen, though - never going to work on a phone or tablet!
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Post by jdl on Sept 8, 2019 10:40:41 GMT
As for Wimbledon, this is a constant problem with this sort of analysis. Which is a new club? (Wikipedia think we are) Which is a phoenix, which is a continuation of the old club?
For every 'simple' answer to this, there's at least one exception. No one is ever going to agree on it all. For instance, did we go bust in 92, or did the club carry on? Is AFC Wimbledon a brand new club (technically, yes), or the continuation of the original club? (Wombles fans would definitely argue the latter.)
And then there's the question of when does an ex-non league club become an EFL club? I've stuck to the simplistic view that if a club was promoted from the Conference to the EFL after automatic promotion, they remain an ex-non league club. But I'm sure the fans of Wycombe or Crawley think their clubs are EFL clubs, and I doubt if most Yeovil fans regard this seaon as a 'return' to their natural place.
How long does an ex-nl club have to be in the EFL before they become a League club? (are Barnet EFL or ex-non league?!) And what about Oxford and Cambridge, and the other clubs that were promoted before automatic promotion - are they still ex-non league??
If you really want to (and somebody will!), you can even argue that Gillingham are ex-non league, as they started in the Southern League and we're elected to the League (as, indeed were Le Arse and Spurs - Spurs are technically the only non-league club ever to win the FA Cup...) Where's the line? Why are Wycombe ex-non league, but Oxford not? Or, if Oxford are, why aren't Spurs? The only difference is time.
It's a bloody minefield!
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Post by daveu on Sept 8, 2019 11:09:50 GMT
As for Wimbledon, this is a constant problem with this sort of analysis. Which is a new club? (Wikipedia think we are) Which is a phoenix, which is a continuation of the old club? For every 'simple' answer to this, there's at least one exception. No one is ever going to agree on it all. For instance, did we go bust in 92, or did the club carry on? Is AFC Wimbledon a brand new club (technically, yes), or the continuation of the original club? (Wombles fans would definitely argue the latter.) And then there's the question of when does an ex-non league club become an EFL club? I've stuck to the simplistic view that if a club was promoted from the Conference to the EFL after automatic promotion, they remain an ex-non league club. But I'm sure the fans of Wycombe or Crawley think their clubs are EFL clubs, and I doubt if most Yeovil fans regard this seaon as a 'return' to their natural place. How long does an ex-nl club have to be in the EFL before they become a League club? (are Barnet EFL or ex-non league?!) And what about Oxford and Cambridge, and the other clubs that were promoted before automatic promotion - are they still ex-non league?? If you really want to (and somebody will!), you can even argue that Gillingham are ex-non league, as they started in the Southern League and we're elected to the League (as, indeed were Le Arse and Spurs - Spurs are technically the only non-league club ever to win the FA Cup...) Where's the line? Why are Wycombe ex-non league, but Oxford not? Or, if Oxford are, why aren't Spurs? The only difference is time. It's a bloody minefield! Wombles fans can f**k off. When we were in the same league they (at least some of them) insisted that we were a new club while themselves claiming the history of a club that did ( and indeed does ) still exist.
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Post by sword65 on Sept 8, 2019 13:13:35 GMT
As for Wimbledon, this is a constant problem with this sort of analysis. Which is a new club? (Wikipedia think we are) Which is a phoenix, which is a continuation of the old club? For every 'simple' answer to this, there's at least one exception. No one is ever going to agree on it all. For instance, did we go bust in 92, or did the club carry on? Is AFC Wimbledon a brand new club (technically, yes), or the continuation of the original club? (Wombles fans would definitely argue the latter.) And then there's the question of when does an ex-non league club become an EFL club? I've stuck to the simplistic view that if a club was promoted from the Conference to the EFL after automatic promotion, they remain an ex-non league club. But I'm sure the fans of Wycombe or Crawley think their clubs are EFL clubs, and I doubt if most Yeovil fans regard this seaon as a 'return' to their natural place. How long does an ex-nl club have to be in the EFL before they become a League club? (are Barnet EFL or ex-non league?!) And what about Oxford and Cambridge, and the other clubs that were promoted before automatic promotion - are they still ex-non league?? If you really want to (and somebody will!), you can even argue that Gillingham are ex-non league, as they started in the Southern League and we're elected to the League (as, indeed were Le Arse and Spurs - Spurs are technically the only non-league club ever to win the FA Cup...) Where's the line? Why are Wycombe ex-non league, but Oxford not? Or, if Oxford are, why aren't Spurs? The only difference is time. It's a bloody minefield! Wombles fans can f**k off. When we were in the same league they (at least some of them) insisted that we were a new club while themselves claiming the history of a club that did ( and indeed does ) still exist. Spot on Dave though Wombles fans can f**k off would have sufficed🙂
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Post by yorkshirestone on Sept 11, 2019 11:50:53 GMT
How long does an ex-nl club have to be in the EFL before they become a League club? (are Barnet EFL or ex-non league?!) And what about Oxford and Cambridge, and the other clubs that were promoted before automatic promotion - are they still ex-non league?? Perhaps take the beginning of direct promotion and relegation between the APL and FL as the line? Makes sense from a procedural point of view as clubs from then on were promoted rather than elected. Scarborough would be the first ex-non-league club and Darlington (or was it Lincoln?) would be the first ex-league club.
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Post by jdl on Sept 11, 2019 15:37:04 GMT
How long does an ex-nl club have to be in the EFL before they become a League club? (are Barnet EFL or ex-non league?!) And what about Oxford and Cambridge, and the other clubs that were promoted before automatic promotion - are they still ex-non league?? Perhaps take the beginning of direct promotion and relegation between the APL and FL as the line? Makes sense from a procedural point of view as clubs from then on were promoted rather than elected. Scarborough would be the first ex-non-league club and Darlington (or was it Lincoln?) would be the first ex-league club. Lincoln was the first club to come down - they went back up the next season. Newport were the next to come down, but they went bust (during the season, I think?). Then Darlington came down the year we went up (and made a huge fuss about it!). Next was Colchester, the first ex-EFL club to spend more than a season in the Conference. There's a strange gap in my spreadsheet the following year, so I guess no one came down for some reason (club going bust?). After that it was Hallifax's first relegation to the Conference - they were with 'us' for 5 years, the first club to spend a long time out of the EFL, and starting a trend of long-term demotion. After that, nearly all relegated clubs spent at least 2 seasons in the Conference, some a lot more.
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Post by Better things to do in life on Sept 11, 2019 17:16:30 GMT
The catastrophe was not promotion to the league, the catastrophe was selling our home before we had a new one to move into. IMHO Maidstone Utd would have survived if we were still playing in Maidstone at the time. Likewise we might still have gone bust even if we hadn't got promoted due to playing home games more than 20 miles away. In other words it's not the automatic promotion to the football league that is the problem but the way some but not all clubs go about it. The likes of Wycombe and many others have shown it can be done the right way. Spot on. Indeed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but did any of us even back then feel that selling London Road was ever a good thing? Thank God for the Gallagher Stadium, it has made us what we are today, and I am mightily thankful for it!
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Post by jdl on Sept 11, 2019 17:47:28 GMT
Indeed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but did any of us even back then feel that selling London Road was ever a good thing? Thank God for the Gallagher Stadium, it has made us what we are today, and I am mightily thankful for it! Some of us (me!) certainly worried about it. It seemed a hell of a risk, even with all the positive things that were going on at the time. If I'd had known what I know now about football clubs and how they are 'run', I would have been very worried. But then I just trusted in JT. After all, he had done wonders with the club since he'd got involved and he'd even created the Pyramid and got the FL to start taking non-league seriously. Because of all the fuss about us going bust, people tend to forget what Jim did on that side of things - without him we might still be watching the Northern and |Southern Premier Champions failing to be elected into the League year after year. In those days, how football clubs were run seemed a bit of a mystery and most of us just got on with it and didn't think about the consequences - after all, there was a lot else wrong with football back then. Clubs just seemed to carry on, year after year, with no visible means of support. Grounds deteriorated, gates dropped, terraces were closed, wooden stands became worse and worse death-traps, but teams continued to play and fans (mostly) continued to watch. That JT managed to turn sleepy old Maidstone into 'the Man U of non-league football' didn't seem that puzzling at the time. It just seemed to be a by-product of his energy and character. No one knew where the money was coming from, and no one really cared. But alarm bells rang for me when the ground was sold, even then, at some level, I appreciated that the ground was the only real asset clubs have. Selling it was like selling your seed corn. And, when I saw what JT had done to Dartford's ground (a proper old-school town football stadium - in many ways better than London Road), and saw how much yellow there was everywhere, I began to worry more - especially when the gates dropped. But then we got promoted, and had a cracking first season in Div 4, very nearly getting promoted at the first try, and all worries vanished - Jim's plan had worked, we were in the FL to stay. But what we didn't know was, even as we celebrated our first season and the wins over Gillingham, the rot had already set in, and that was as good as it was going to get. And in just two years it would all be over. For Darts, as well as us.
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Post by Bernie on Sept 11, 2019 18:01:25 GMT
Maybe I'm one of life's pessimists, but it was obvious there would be no new stadium, and the money from the sale of the old ground was being spent at an alarming rate. It was like watching a slow motion car crash with an inevitable conclusion.
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Post by jdh80 on Sept 11, 2019 20:51:35 GMT
I always understood that any club seeking election to the Football League under the old pre automatic promotion system had to prove there worthiness This not only meant suitable ground but also financial ability. It seems now all you have to do clubs is gamble on getting a champion team together and win your way. The old system was rotten but do clubs not still have to prove there worthiness of membership ? And if not why not. With all the talk of corrupt gambling in football should not the FA & FL first action not be against club owners who gamble with the future of there respective clubs The biggest problem with actions against owners is the fa/efl will have a few problems with regards to what they can do. Football clubs whether you like it or not are businesses and like all businesses can be run how the owner sees fit. What the fa/efl can do is act in a similar way to an ombudsman and ensure that codes of practice are followed, but if you have an owner who wants to spend beyond their means what can be done to stop this, the fa/efl can put sanctions on teams to stop them signing new players. You then get chicken shit pieces of crap like the guy at Bury who was happy to turn around and have a cva where the players would get paid 50% of their wages and the debts racked up will also be paid backed at a lesser rate. Most people just think oh the fans will have no team to support but more importantly you have the staff who worked for the club out of a job, you have the companies that were owed money to going bust as they can't recoup their loses resulting in more jobs being lost. This is a business model that a lot of business people think is a good way of working, start up a business get it going bring people in expand rack up debt file for bankruptcy/liquidation and write of most of the debts and leave people with no jobs and money and yet there doesn't seem to be a way to stop these people from repeating the cycle. If we go back to the fas fit and proper testing for an owner, what if they look in the books and see funds which are necessary for three years they approve the owner, but the owner spunks all the money on building a team in the first season paying over the top wages, then the second season the debt escalates and the team are in the shit, owner wants to bail out and files for bankruptcy and everyone gets fucked. The more money pumped into the top end of the scale the money chancers like dale etc will try to buy lower league teams pump money in getting them up the leagues to try and take out as much as they can. Look at ridsdale at Leeds the chicken lot at Blackburn, oystons at Blackpool, the Belgium Doris at Charlton.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 23:26:25 GMT
Derby County are in serious trouble if they sell to Foster Gillette, son of George Gillette, renowned asset stripper of Liverpool FC. F***ing Yanks! Stay out! Oh, wait . . .
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Post by stainese on Sept 12, 2019 6:28:02 GMT
Community owned & run clubs living within there means is the way forward
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Post by jdl on Sept 16, 2019 12:22:21 GMT
All football clubs should be declared ACVs (Asset of Community Value) - or some similar scheme should be set up specifically for football clubs, as the ACV scheme is more aimed at safeguarding buildings, like pubs, etc.
The idea would be that football clubs would be recognised as more than just businesses or property, but as part of the local community - an asset of community value. Things like change of name, moving out of the area, sale of the ground, amalgamation with other clubs, etc would be strictly controlled, with the local authority having to give permission before they can happen, and they in turn would have to conduct a local consultation before making any decisions. The bias would always be very much towards keeping the club as it is - same name, same ground, etc - unless the reasons for change could be demonstrated to be of benefit to the club, the supporters and the local community.
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Post by shamstone on Sept 16, 2019 13:10:19 GMT
All football clubs should be declared ACVs (Asset of Community Value) - or some similar scheme should be set up specifically for football clubs, as the ACV scheme is more aimed at safeguarding buildings, like pubs, etc. The idea would be that football clubs would be recognised as more than just businesses or property, but as part of the local community - an asset of community value. Things like change of name, moving out of the area, sale of the ground, amalgamation with other clubs, etc would be strictly controlled, with the local authority having to give permission before they can happen, and they in turn would have to conduct a local consultation before making any decisions. The bias would always be very much towards keeping the club as it is - same name, same ground, etc - unless the reasons for change could be demonstrated to be of benefit to the club, the supporters and the local community. Local authority. Don’t think so
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