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Post by shamstone on Sept 25, 2019 15:42:47 GMT
I've just been watching The Rise of the Nazis, and how Hitler managed to dismantle democracy in six months..... Oh bugger, I mentioned Hitler already. Twice. Even
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Post by royalstone on Sept 25, 2019 19:40:22 GMT
I've just been watching The Rise of the Nazis, and how Hitler managed to dismantle democracy in six months..... Oh bugger, I mentioned Hitler already. I watched this series ( on BBC i player) recently too. Excellent series and a must watch ! Lessons from the 1930s must be learnt and not forgotten so the same mistakes are not allowed to repeat themselves. People need to take time to shape their views from a number of sources, personal experiences and history and not be blinded by crazy populism ( on both the left and right).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 20:09:38 GMT
At last it's official, BoJo is a lying cheating good for nothing who should not be in charge of a deckchair, never mind the country. Regardless of where anyone stands on Brexit, this has to be a good day for democracy. He was only voted in by a handful of card carrying Tory members, so the sooner he disappears the better. 11 non elected judges making a major political decision over a PM voted in by his party (and a democratically elected MP in his own right) and over a national referendum vote of the whole nation is hardly a triumph for democracy. Your Boris hatred - which is getting quite sickening on this forum - is clouding your view of reality. Your demand for brexit is clouding your judgement. Brexit is nothing compared to the rule of law and any government that thinks it doesn't need to be bound by it. There was nothing in the Supreme Courts ruling that prevents Brexit in any way shape or form it insures the the proper function of Parliament. Without which opens the door to all kinds of abuse of power. If it was reversed and it was a Lib Dem minority government that closed down parliament to ensure an act to revoke article 50 would pass without proper scrutiny and the Judge's again ruled it unlawful as they would, would you still feel the same way about the judges
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Post by Better things to do in life on Sept 25, 2019 22:13:09 GMT
11 non elected judges making a major political decision over a PM voted in by his party (and a democratically elected MP in his own right) and over a national referendum vote of the whole nation is hardly a triumph for democracy. Your Boris hatred - which is getting quite sickening on this forum - is clouding your view of reality. Your demand for brexit is clouding your judgement. Brexit is nothing compared to the rule of law and any government that thinks it doesn't need to be bound by it. There was nothing in the Supreme Courts ruling that prevents Brexit in any way shape or form it insures the the proper function of Parliament. Without which opens the door to all kinds of abuse of power. If it was reversed and it was a Lib Dem minority government that closed down parliament to ensure an act to revoke article 50 would pass without proper scrutiny and the Judge's again ruled it unlawful as they would, would you still feel the same way about the judges Yes I would. The legislature should not be having to be brought in to political decisions. "My demand for Brexit?" No. My personal view is not the point. Its the British publics referendum vote for Brexit that's relevant. Its not my judgement that's getting clouded here, Rob!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 22:22:43 GMT
Your demand for brexit is clouding your judgement. Brexit is nothing compared to the rule of law and any government that thinks it doesn't need to be bound by it. There was nothing in the Supreme Courts ruling that prevents Brexit in any way shape or form it insures the the proper function of Parliament. Without which opens the door to all kinds of abuse of power. If it was reversed and it was a Lib Dem minority government that closed down parliament to ensure an act to revoke article 50 would pass without proper scrutiny and the Judge's again ruled it unlawful as they would, would you still feel the same way about the judges Yes I would. The legislature should not be having to be brought in to political decisions. "My demand for Brexit?" No. My personal view is not the point. Its the British publics referendum vote for Brexit that's relevant. Its not my judgement that's getting clouded here, Rob! They didn't get involved in the politics other than to ensure democracy is not impinged. They have defended democracy so your judgement is way off. Parliament must not be stopped from holding the executive to account that's a founding principle if you don't have that you don't have democracy it's a decision irrelevant of referenda. If a government can close debate unlawfully because it wants to force its own agenda that is NOT democracy it is DICTATORSHIP. This decision was right just and protects us all from any Government that attempts to rule without consent.
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Post by 61666 on Sept 26, 2019 7:23:29 GMT
We are living and n very strange times. Donald Trump is being seen as acting like a Mafia boss. Vladimir Putin is a dictator in all but name, while there are extreme factions with increasing influence and power in many parts of the world. Our own parliament was in chaos last night with BoJo trying brazen
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Post by 61666 on Sept 26, 2019 7:35:19 GMT
Continued... ... it out after being slapped down by the judges. But thank goodness for that, or otherwise nobody would be able to hold the government to account. Last night wasn't pretty and did nothing for our country's reputation, but at least it showed that we are still a democracy and not a dictatorship. The government has yet to prove it has any plans for Brexit, other than operation Yellowhammer. Yesterday we have Michael Gove telling the Commons than industry and commerce say they have it all sorted, then immediately industry and commerce say 'Hang on a minute, that is not what we said!'. Among many other reasons, here is further proof that this government cannot be trusted.
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Post by Better things to do in life on Sept 26, 2019 8:22:06 GMT
Yes I would. The legislature should not be having to be brought in to political decisions. "My demand for Brexit?" No. My personal view is not the point. Its the British publics referendum vote for Brexit that's relevant. Its not my judgement that's getting clouded here, Rob! They didn't get involved in the politics other than to ensure democracy is not impinged.They have defended democracy so your judgement is way off. Parliament must not be stopped from holding the executive to account that's a founding principle if you don't have that you don't have democracy it's a decision irrelevant of referenda. If a government can close debate unlawfully because it wants to force its own agenda that is NOT democracy it is DICTATORSHIP. This decision was right just and protects us all from any Government that attempts to rule without consent.But how about the democracy that is impinged by Parliament not implementing the referendum result? What about a Parliament ruling (in the area of leave/remain) against the democratic vote of the people? This is NOT about Parliament holding the Executive to account, its Parliament not implementing the will of the people! THAT is the core democracy issue here, that's where the threat of dictatorship lies - when your Parliament abuses its position in this Parliamentary Democracy - not to merely implement laws we don't like (we are used to that, and they are free to do so) - but to ignore a REFERENDUM is a whole different thing, and is DICTATORIAL. Its amazing to me how leavers have shrouded this simple fact by saying that the government trying to implement this democratic will of the people as per the referendum result are themselves acting undemocratically and dictatorial when they try everything they can to implement that democratic vote! Madness!! Boris is not the Dictator, nor Rees-Mogg, nor "the Tories"...…..the dictator here is a Parliament that goes beyond its remit to quash a democratic referendum result, and then when the PM tries to enforce that result, that Parliament resorts to going to the Judiciary to stop the PM implementing the democratically voted Brexit. That's scary. Listen to the Attorney Generals view of Parliament's actions in his speech to Parliament on YouTube. He calls it right, Its a disgrace the way Parliament has acted. I also find it amazing that people who have spent years running down our MP's, attacking them for expenses claims, dishonesty and being useless, are now defending their position to dictate to us all in keeping us in the EU against the will of the people. Hypocrites all. Look at the original problem and the real threat to democracy here, don't attack the people trying to solve it.
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Post by daveu on Sept 26, 2019 9:42:22 GMT
You know what, your mind is so closed it's not even worth replying.
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Post by Nick on Sept 26, 2019 10:06:31 GMT
Exactly right daveu, it would be a waste of time.
Oldboy no doubt applauds his Churchillian-like Boris who now declares
"We can best honour the memory of Jo Cox by delivering on Brexit"
WHAT A BUFFOON, WHAT A JOKER, WHAT A LOSER !
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Post by headstone on Sept 26, 2019 10:28:44 GMT
He is probably already regretting that statement. Assuming he has a conscience, of course.
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Post by 61666 on Sept 26, 2019 11:35:30 GMT
Mmm. What conscience? As for parliament vetoing the vote of the people, the vote was yes/no and brexit is far more complicated than that, hence the need for negotiation to get it right. But many leavers cannot, or maybe will not accept that. Oh that is was so simple, but actually it is. It's called Remain...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 12:06:09 GMT
They didn't get involved in the politics other than to ensure democracy is not impinged.They have defended democracy so your judgement is way off. Parliament must not be stopped from holding the executive to account that's a founding principle if you don't have that you don't have democracy it's a decision irrelevant of referenda. If a government can close debate unlawfully because it wants to force its own agenda that is NOT democracy it is DICTATORSHIP. This decision was right just and protects us all from any Government that attempts to rule without consent.But how about the democracy that is impinged by Parliament not implementing the referendum result? What about a Parliament ruling (in the area of leave/remain) against the democratic vote of the people? This is NOT about Parliament holding the Executive to account, its Parliament not implementing the will of the people! THAT is the core democracy issue here, that's where the threat of dictatorship lies - when your Parliament abuses its position in this Parliamentary Democracy - not to merely implement laws we don't like (we are used to that, and they are free to do so) - but to ignore a REFERENDUM is a whole different thing, and is DICTATORIAL. Its amazing to me how leavers have shrouded this simple fact by saying that the government trying to implement this democratic will of the people as per the referendum result are themselves acting undemocratically and dictatorial when they try everything they can to implement that democratic vote! Madness!! Boris is not the Dictator, nor Rees-Mogg, nor "the Tories"...…..the dictator here is a Parliament that goes beyond its remit to quash a democratic referendum result, and then when the PM tries to enforce that result, that Parliament resorts to going to the Judiciary to stop the PM implementing the democratically voted Brexit. That's scary. Listen to the Attorney Generals view of Parliament's actions in his speech to Parliament on YouTube. He calls it right, Its a disgrace the way Parliament has acted. I also find it amazing that people who have spent years running down our MP's, attacking them for expenses claims, dishonesty and being useless, are now defending their position to dictate to us all in keeping us in the EU against the will of the people. Hypocrites all. Look at the original problem and the real threat to democracy here, don't attack the people trying to solve it. Tell you what when you can show me 17.4 million People who can agree what Brexit they want then I might give your reply some credence. But you can't it's doubtful that more than 3-5 million voted for the insanity of no deal. Where as all Remainers wanted...guess what... REMAIN. Unless someone comes up with a balanced, non tabloid driven insanity ridden reasoned position on what Brexit should look like and presents it to the people to say what's your preference then it's not going to happen in any way that can unite the country. This mess we are in is entirely at the door of self annointed King Boris his minions his backers who are seeking to escape E.U.Law on tax avoidance. What they want had got nothing to do with improving the lot of the common man and neither has Brexit. Brexit will achieve the opposite. Parliament is defending out interests against the willful destruction of a no deal Boris Brexit
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Post by ade on Sept 26, 2019 13:11:20 GMT
I see Jacob Ress Mogg paraded about by leave voters as a man of the people, a champion for Brexit......
This grub does not care about you. Everything he is doing is financially motivated. Whatever happens post Brexit, he’ll be sitting pretty on the £7million he’s already made since the referendum. He’s in line to make much more with a no deal. Oh yeah his dad also wrote a book on how to profit from economic disasters. But yeah sure, man of the people. He is leader of the House of Commons, yet he shows his colleagues no respect with his actions. If I behaved like him in a meeting at work, I’d be dragged in front of HR and disciplined.
This is literally what Tory contempt and self entitlement looks like.
Whatever your view on Brexit, please see this conman for what he is.
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Post by pedant on Sept 26, 2019 14:28:20 GMT
They didn't get involved in the politics other than to ensure democracy is not impinged.They have defended democracy so your judgement is way off. Parliament must not be stopped from holding the executive to account that's a founding principle if you don't have that you don't have democracy it's a decision irrelevant of referenda. If a government can close debate unlawfully because it wants to force its own agenda that is NOT democracy it is DICTATORSHIP. This decision was right just and protects us all from any Government that attempts to rule without consent.But how about the democracy that is impinged by Parliament not implementing the referendum result? What about a Parliament ruling (in the area of leave/remain) against the democratic vote of the people? This is NOT about Parliament holding the Executive to account, its Parliament not implementing the will of the people! THAT is the core democracy issue here, that's where the threat of dictatorship lies - when your Parliament abuses its position in this Parliamentary Democracy - not to merely implement laws we don't like (we are used to that, and they are free to do so) - but to ignore a REFERENDUM is a whole different thing, and is DICTATORIAL. Its amazing to me how leavers have shrouded this simple fact by saying that the government trying to implement this democratic will of the people as per the referendum result are themselves acting undemocratically and dictatorial when they try everything they can to implement that democratic vote! Madness!! Boris is not the Dictator, nor Rees-Mogg, nor "the Tories"...…..the dictator here is a Parliament that goes beyond its remit to quash a democratic referendum result, and then when the PM tries to enforce that result, that Parliament resorts to going to the Judiciary to stop the PM implementing the democratically voted Brexit. That's scary. Listen to the Attorney Generals view of Parliament's actions in his speech to Parliament on YouTube. He calls it right, Its a disgrace the way Parliament has acted. I also find it amazing that people who have spent years running down our MP's, attacking them for expenses claims, dishonesty and being useless, are now defending their position to dictate to us all in keeping us in the EU against the will of the people. Hypocrites all. Look at the original problem and the real threat to democracy here, don't attack the people trying to solve it. What will of the people?
The majority of "the people" did not vote to leave.
A majority of those who voted did vote to leave but that does not constitute the "will of the people".
Terminology should be important but that importance, along with truth and facts, have apparently long since 'left the building' in this fiasco.
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