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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 22:28:00 GMT
I had a Scottish mate at work years ago who was quite affronted when I once compared the Conference to the Scottish lower divisions. I made the comparison on the grounds of attendances and the fact that many (most?) lower league Scottish teams were semi-pro. I was only winding him up, so never took this any further, but I've often wondered just how Scottish football compares to its big brother south of the border.
There was no internet (or even many PCs!) in those days, so it was a difficult comparison to check, but now it's a piece of piss - a quick copy, a spreadsheet and a sort, and all is revealed!
On attendance alone, obviously Rangers (av attendance 58k+) and Celtic (49k+) would be in the Premier League, but so too would four other clubs: Heart of Midlothian, Hibernian and Aberdeen.
But the next club, Dundee (6,337) would be in L1 - no Scottish clubs at all in the Championship! In all, 14 clubs would find themselves in L1 - 7 each from the SPL and the SCh. Three more SCh clubs would make it into L2, plus one SL1 club, Raith Rovers (1,619).
And all the rest - all 19 of them - would be playing non-league (so I was right!). Four have high enough attendances to make the NL, 12 would get into the NN (what a division that would be!), and a lowly three would just scrape into the NS - bottom club, Albion Rovers would be second from bottom on 294 (above Truro - 166).
(NB: It's actually quite arguable which English league some clubs would go into, so I've done it on the basis of the Scottish club having an average attendance higher than the lowest club in each of the English leagues/divisions. Mr Pedant is welcome to argue that other ways of doing this are preferable!)
The full picture...
PL
Celtic ( SPL ) 58,352
Rangers ( SPL ) 49,536
Heart of Midlothian ( SPL ) 18,221
Hibernian ( SPL ) 17,572
Aberdeen ( SPL ) 14,737
L1
Dundee ( SPL ) 6,337
Kilmarnock ( SPL ) 6,209
Motherwell ( SPL ) 5,617
St Mirren ( SPL ) 5,587
Dundee United ( SCH ) 5,265
Dunfermline Athletic ( SCH ) 5,031
Falkirk ( SCH ) 4,624
St Johnstone ( SPL ) 4,497
Ross County ( SCH ) 3,930
Livingston ( SPL ) 3,682
Partick Thistle ( SCH ) 3,153
Hamilton Academical ( SPL ) 2,774
Inverness Caledonian Thistle ( SCH ) 2,518
Ayr United ( SCH ) 2,491
L2
Greenock Morton ( SCH ) 2,220
Raith Rovers ( SL1 ) 1,619
Queen of the South ( SCH ) 1,593
Alloa Athletic ( SCH ) 1,142
NL
Airdrieonians ( SL1 ) 809
Montrose ( SL1 ) 798
Arbroath ( SL1 ) 791
Queens Park ( SL2 ) 648
NN
Dumbarton ( SL1 ) 640
Stirling Albion ( SL2 ) 611
Forfar Athletic ( SL1 ) 604
Peterhead ( SL2 ) 600
East Fife ( SL1 ) 594
Clyde ( SL2 ) 577
Elgin City ( SL2 ) 573
Stenhousemuir ( SL1 ) 525
Brechin City ( SL1 ) 496
Berwick Rangers ( SL2 ) 484
Annan Athletic ( SL2 ) 437
Stranraer ( SL1 ) 362
NS
Cowdenbeath ( SL2 ) 326
Edinburgh City ( SL2 ) 313
Albion Rovers ( SL2 ) 284
Key:
SPL - Scottish Premier League (12 clubs)
SCH - Scottish Champinoship (10 clubs)
SL1 - Scottish League 1 (10 clubs)
SL2 - Scottish League 2 (10 clubs)
I wonder where they got those names from...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 9:12:25 GMT
The problem with Scottish football is...it's in Scotland. Put any club in the EPL and they will fill any stadium they build. But we don't want the parochial sectarianism of the most likely candidates. It's goes beyond nasty, or any vague remnants of hooliganism we have. And why the hell does Dundee, a city smaller than Wallsall or Swindon, still have two clubs? There is a good league in there somewhere, waiting to be liberated from the Old Firm stranglehold.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 9:42:47 GMT
I have had the pleasure of visiting precisely 18 football clubs ranging from Celtic at the top to Dalbeattie Star and Fort William at the bottom end and thankfully I have had no occasions of violence or sectarianism at any of them. Some of the grounds are very poor and you can see why clubs cannot attract big crowds and some of the football on offer is tedious to say the least but my hat comes off to the supporters of Fort William a club found at the bottom of Ben Nevis as well as at the bottom of the highland league. In fact I cannot think of any season when they have not finished bottom and this season they already have -8 points and I cannot see them reaching 0 points by the end of this season.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 11:10:46 GMT
And there's more...
If those 4 Scottish clubs were in the NL, this is what the attendance table would look like:
1 Leyton Orient 4,980
2 Wrexham 4,872
3 Chesterfield 4,572
4 Hartlepool United 3,243
5 Salford City 2,589
6 Maidstone United 2,285
7 Sutton United 1,818
(av) 1,777
8 Aldershot Town 1,767
9 Eastleigh 1,734
10 Harrogate Town 1,720
11 FC Halifax Town 1,695
12 AFC Fylde 1,651
13 Maidenhead United 1,446
14 Ebbsfleet United 1,436
15 Bromley 1,432
16 Havant & Waterlooville 1,331
17 Barrow 1,296
18 Dagenham & Redbridge 1,269
19 Barnet 1,263
20 Solihull Moors 1,070
21 Dover Athletic 992
22 Braintree Town 820
23 Airdrieonians (SL1) 809
24 Montrose (SL1) 798
25 Arbroath (SL1) 791
26 Gateshead 780
27 Queens Park (SL2) 648
28 Boreham Wood 641
Even the Scots can't save Gateshead and Boring Wood...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 11:26:31 GMT
I have had the pleasure of visiting precisely 18 football clubs ranging from Celtic at the top to Dalbeattie Star and Fort William at the bottom end and thankfully I have had no occasions of violence or sectarianism at any of them. Some of the grounds are very poor and you can see why clubs cannot attract big crowds and some of the football on offer is tedious to say the least but my hat comes off to the supporters of Fort William a club found at the bottom of Ben Nevis as well as at the bottom of the highland league. In fact I cannot think of any season when they have not finished bottom and this season they already have -8 points and I cannot see them reaching 0 points by the end of this season. It's worse than it seems - they actually drew one game, but they've been deducted nine points - fielding an ineligible player three times! Plucky little club, yes, but also a basket case! I wonder if PBB is aware of them... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 17:28:16 GMT
The problem with Scottish football is...it's in Scotland. Put any club in the EPL and they will fill any stadium they build. But we don't want the parochial sectarianism of the most likely candidates. It's goes beyond nasty, or any vague remnants of hooliganism we have. And why the hell does Dundee, a city smaller than Wallsall or Swindon, still have two clubs? There is a good league in there somewhere, waiting to be liberated from the Old Firm stranglehold. Have you read Dundee and Dundee Uniteds history. I don’t recall Walsall or Swindon getting to a European Cup semi final |
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Post by stainese on Nov 7, 2018 19:48:16 GMT
The worst sectarianism i have ever witnessed was in England, attending an FA Trophy game .
Then Corby was an unreal experience
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Post by spurstone on Nov 7, 2018 21:47:11 GMT
The worst sectarianism i have ever witnessed was in England, attending an FA Trophy game . Then Corby was an unreal experience They (all 150ish of them) were mostly a bunch of *****!! |
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Post by stainese on Nov 7, 2018 23:04:08 GMT
The worst sectarianism i have ever witnessed was in England, attending an FA Trophy game . Then Corby was an unreal experience They (all 150ish of them) were mostly a bunch of *****!! Mostly ? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 1:33:19 GMT
They (all 150ish of them) were mostly a bunch of *****!! Mostly ? I remember the day well as the Corby fans were all well armed with knives and at least one had a machete . Where were the stewards to do a search that day? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:13:07 GMT
A combined 'British PL' - based purely on attendance:
1 Manchester United 74,474
2 Arsenal 59,937
3 Tottenham Hotspur 59,651
4 Celtic 58,352
5 West Ham United 56,905
6 Manchester City 53,906
7 Liverpool 52,596
8 Newcastle United 51,119
9 Rangers 49,536
10 Chelsea 40,486
11 Everton 38,825
12 Leicester City 31,944
13 Wolverhampton Wanderers 31,072
14 Cardiff City 31,054
15 Brighton & Hove Albion 30,569
16 Southampton 29,630
17 Crystal Palace 25,659
18 Fulham 24,429
19 Huddersfield Town 22,805
20 Watford 20,223
21 Burnley 20,189
22 Heart of Midlothian 18,221
23 Hibernian 17,572
24 Aberdeen 14,737
25 AFC Bournemouth 10,587
Bournemouth making the Scots look good!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:20:46 GMT
Interesting thought experiment to imagine an actual British PL - Rangers and Celtic invited in 1st season, then automatic promotion/relegation (non-geographical) from then on.
People used to say it wouldn't work because only Celtic and Rangers would be good enough (and it would effectively kill Scottish football). But that was before the massive TV money the PL gets these days. Imagine teams like Hearts and Aberdeen with the prospect of that sort of money...
But, of course, Brexit will bugger up any chance of this ever happening...
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Post by pedant on Nov 8, 2018 18:19:46 GMT
I had a Scottish mate at work years ago who was quite affronted when I once compared the Conference to the Scottish lower divisions. I made the comparison on the grounds of attendances and the fact that many (most?) lower league Scottish teams were semi-pro. I was only winding him up, so never took this any further, but I've often wondered just how Scottish football compares to its big brother south of the border. There was no internet (or even many PCs!) in those days, so it was a difficult comparison to check, but now it's a piece of piss - a quick copy, a spreadsheet and a sort, and all is revealed! On attendance alone, obviously Rangers (av attendance 58k+) and Celtic (49k+) would be in the Premier League, but so too would four other clubs: Heart of Midlothian, Hibernian and Aberdeen. But the next club, Dundee (6,337) would be in L1 - no Scottish clubs at all in the Championship! In all, 14 clubs would find themselves in L1 - 7 each from the SPL and the SCh. Three more SCh clubs would make it into L2, plus one SL1 club, Raith Rovers (1,619). And all the rest - all 19 of them - would be playing non-league (so I was right!). Four have high enough attendances to make the NL, 12 would get into the NN (what a division that would be!), and a lowly three would just scrape into the NS - bottom club, Albion Rovers would be second from bottom on 294 (above Truro - 166). (NB: It's actually quite arguable which English league some clubs would go into, so I've done it on the basis of the Scottish club having an average attendance higher than the lowest club in each of the English leagues/divisions. Mr Pedant is welcome to argue that other ways of doing this are preferable!)
The full picture... PL Celtic ( SPL ) 58,352 Rangers ( SPL ) 49,536 Heart of Midlothian ( SPL ) 18,221 Hibernian ( SPL ) 17,572 Aberdeen ( SPL ) 14,737 L1 Dundee ( SPL ) 6,337 Kilmarnock ( SPL ) 6,209 Motherwell ( SPL ) 5,617 St Mirren ( SPL ) 5,587 Dundee United ( SCH ) 5,265 Dunfermline Athletic ( SCH ) 5,031 Falkirk ( SCH ) 4,624 St Johnstone ( SPL ) 4,497 Ross County ( SCH ) 3,930 Livingston ( SPL ) 3,682 Partick Thistle ( SCH ) 3,153 Hamilton Academical ( SPL ) 2,774 Inverness Caledonian Thistle ( SCH ) 2,518 Ayr United ( SCH ) 2,491 L2 Greenock Morton ( SCH ) 2,220 Raith Rovers ( SL1 ) 1,619 Queen of the South ( SCH ) 1,593 Alloa Athletic ( SCH ) 1,142 NL Airdrieonians ( SL1 ) 809 Montrose ( SL1 ) 798 Arbroath ( SL1 ) 791 Queens Park ( SL2 ) 648 NN Dumbarton ( SL1 ) 640 Stirling Albion ( SL2 ) 611 Forfar Athletic ( SL1 ) 604 Peterhead ( SL2 ) 600 East Fife ( SL1 ) 594 Clyde ( SL2 ) 577 Elgin City ( SL2 ) 573 Stenhousemuir ( SL1 ) 525 Brechin City ( SL1 ) 496 Berwick Rangers ( SL2 ) 484 Annan Athletic ( SL2 ) 437 Stranraer ( SL1 ) 362 NS Cowdenbeath ( SL2 ) 326 Edinburgh City ( SL2 ) 313 Albion Rovers ( SL2 ) 284 Key: SPL - Scottish Premier League (12 clubs) SCH - Scottish Champinoship (10 clubs) SL1 - Scottish League 1 (10 clubs) SL2 - Scottish League 2 (10 clubs) I wonder where they got those names from... Firstly I don't need your permission or invitation to comment !
But why would I in this case? I have very little interest in foreign domestic football and even less in foreign domestic football in a minor, wannabee, 'nation'. !!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 19:06:07 GMT
If Rangers or Celtic want to play in the Premier League, they can work their way up through the pyramid like we have.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 20:04:14 GMT
Interesting thought experiment to imagine an actual British PL - Rangers and Celtic invited in 1st season, then automatic promotion/relegation (non-geographical) from then on. People used to say it wouldn't work because only Celtic and Rangers would be good enough (and it would effectively kill Scottish football). But that was before the massive TV money the PL gets these days. Imagine teams like Hearts and Aberdeen with the prospect of that sort of money... But, of course, Brexit will bugger up any chance of this ever happening... Not the word I would use to describe this thread.   |
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