Regionalised L2/NL - has the time come?

[Deleted]

Back in the day, when football was in the shite – hooliganism, falling gates, awful stadiums – there were often proposals for regionalising the lower divisions of the League. Particularly, there were several plans for combining the 4th division and the top non-league clubs, and dividing this into North and South divisions. And, with the establishment of the Alliance/Conference, this idea was revived with renewed interest.

I was always opposed to this. As a supporter of a leading non-league club, I wanted to see my club in its rightful place: the Football League. I did not want us to be in a watered-down 4th division, invited in, instead of earning our place. And, more importantly, going from playing national football, back to regional football again.

It seemed an entirely backward step to me. It would effectively have changed our ambition to that of being promoted to the 3rd division (so we could return to the prestige of playing national football) – a much harder target than just getting into the 4th division (which, in those days, was much weaker than today’s League Two).

However, a lot has changed since then, and I now find myself warming to the idea of higher-level regional football. In the old days, the possibility of getting into the League was almost non-existent, it had only happened half a dozen times since the war – we ourselves discovered just how hard, and unfair- it was. But now automatic promotion is established and accepted, and this has made the National League effectively the 5th division of the English football. It has also raised standards considerably in both the National League and League Two.

This has had a two-fold impact on League Two and National clubs: It has created a pool of 30-40 clubs of similar ability (and not-dissimilar support), distinguishable from each other only in their history and stadium heritage. But it has also increased costs in both leagues, as much higher standards are now expected, and made it much harder to run a small club on football revenue alone. If clubs had to survive on gate income alone, there would be many fewer teams – in both the National and League Two.

So, a two-stage “4th Division” already effectively exists. The only difference from the plans envisaged back in the 80s is that this ‘greater’ 4th Division is divided into two by history, instead of geography. And, whereas, in the 80s most clubs (pro and semi-pro) could struggle on by simply not spending any money on their facilities, these days, simply staging football games (meeting both the legal and supporter expectations) has become prohibitively expensive.

Combining and regionalising the two divisions would therefore now make a lot more sense. Not only would it greatly reduce travel costs (nearly all games reachable in under two hours, many in under an hour), but it would also increase the number of derby games and increase all gates, as most games became local aways.

And, with automatic promotion/relegation an established part of the league structure, there would no longer be the stigma of not playing in a national league. The realistic ambition of most clubs in the new, regionalised League Two would be to gain promotion to League One, exactly as it is for us now to aim at League Two membership. Added to that, we would find ourselves regularly playing clubs once considered as ‘above’ us (regular Gills-Stones derbies, anyone?).

And how many Stones supporters would genuinely miss the long drag to places like Barrow, Gateshead, Fylde and Hartlepool?

[Deleted]

Just to support the above - distances/times to NL clubs:

Distance (km) - club - travel time (H:M)

28 Ebbsfleet United 0:24
47 Bromley 0:43
53 Dagenham & Redbridge 0:45
71 Dover Athletic 0:49
64 Sutton United 0:55
62 Leyton Orient 0:57
88 Woking 1:05
98 Boreham Wood 1:11
105 Aldershot Town 1:11
120 Maidenhead United 1:20
171 Eastleigh 1:48

255 Solihull Moors 2:33

360 Torquay United 4:04
387 Macclesfield Town 4:06
384 Wrexham 4:10
380 FC Halifax Town 4:10
384 Guiseley 4:21
432 Chester 4:25
439 Tranmere Rovers 4:27
464 AFC Fylde 4:39
454 Hartlepool United 4:53
492 Gateshead 5:13
554 Barrow 5:47

In a regionalised L2, of current NL clubs, only Torquay (and possibly Solihull) would be long-distance games - all others would be less than two hours away, nine in little over an hour or less.


EDIT:

And (probably) what a L2 (south) division would look like (based on current clubs):

0 Maidstone United 0:0
28 Ebbsfleet United 0:24
47 Bromley 0:43
53 Dagenham & Redbridge 0:45
71 Dover Athletic 0:49
74 Crawley Town 0:50
64 Sutton United 0:55
62 Leyton Orient 0:57

88 Woking 1:05
98 Boreham Wood 1:11
105 Aldershot Town 1:11
104 Barnet 1:20
120 Maidenhead United 1:20
118 Colchester United 1:21
120 Stevenage 1:24
130 Wycombe Wanderers 1:27
126 Luton Town 1:30
133 Cambridge United 1:37
171 Eastleigh 1:48

201 Swindon Town 2:08
249 Cheltenham Town 2:40
244 Forest Green Rovers 2:41
262 Yeovil Town 2:50

360 Torquay United 4:04

[Deleted]

Is that you Charles Dickens?

[spurstone]

Nah.

[spurstone]

Dec 16, 2017 23:31:12 GMT @johndaubneyslegs said:

Back in the day, when football was in the shite – hooliganism, falling gates, awful stadiums – there were often proposals for regionalising the lower divisions of the League. Particularly, there were several plans for combining the 4th division and the top non-league clubs, and dividing this into North and South divisions. And, with the establishment of the Alliance/Conference, this idea was revived with renewed interest.

I was always opposed to this. As a supporter of a leading non-league club, I wanted to see my club in its rightful place: the Football League. I did not want us to be in a watered-down 4th division, invited in, instead of earning our place. And, more importantly, going from playing national football, back to regional football again.

It seemed an entirely backward step to me. It would effectively have changed our ambition to that of being promoted to the 3rd division (so we could return to the prestige of playing national football) – a much harder target than just getting into the 4th division (which, in those days, was much weaker than today’s League Two).

However, a lot has changed since then, and I now find myself warming to the idea of higher-level regional football. In the old days, the possibility of getting into the League was almost non-existent, it had only happened half a dozen times since the war – we ourselves discovered just how hard, and unfair- it was. But now automatic promotion is established and accepted, and this has made the National League effectively the 5th division of the English football. It has also raised standards considerably in both the National League and League Two.

This has had a two-fold impact on League Two and National clubs: It has created a pool of 30-40 clubs of similar ability (and not-dissimilar support), distinguishable from each other only in their history and stadium heritage. But it has also increased costs in both leagues, as much higher standards are now expected, and made it much harder to run a small club on football revenue alone. If clubs had to survive on gate income alone, there would be many fewer teams – in both the National and League Two.

So, a two-stage “4th Division” already effectively exists. The only difference from the plans envisaged back in the 80s is that this ‘greater’ 4th Division is divided into two by history, instead of geography. And, whereas, in the 80s most clubs (pro and semi-pro) could struggle on by simply not spending any money on their facilities, these days, simply staging football games (meeting both the legal and supporter expectations) has become prohibitively expensive.

Combining and regionalising the two divisions would therefore now make a lot more sense. Not only would it greatly reduce travel costs (nearly all games reachable in under two hours, many in under an hour), but it would also increase the number of derby games and increase all gates, as most games became local aways.

And, with automatic promotion/relegation an established part of the league structure, there would no longer be the stigma of not playing in a national league. The realistic ambition of most clubs in the new, regionalised League Two would be to gain promotion to League Three, exactly as it is for us now to aim at League Two membership. Added to that, we would find ourselves regularly playing clubs once considered as ‘above’ us (regular Gills-Stones derbies, anyone?).

And how many Stones supporters would genuinely miss the long drag to places like Barrow, Gateshead, Fylde and Hartlepool?

Nah

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2017 0:10:00 GMT spurstone said:

Nah.

Maybe he could post here.

Is this for you JDL?

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2017 0:10:00 GMT spurstone said:

Nah.

So bad, you said it twice?

[stainese]

Dec 17, 2017 0:09:24 GMT nws said:

Is that you Charles Dickens?

No it's the ghost of Christmas past wishing you to see a return to the old Division Three North & Division Three South.

[pedant]

Dec 16, 2017 23:31:12 GMT @johndaubneyslegs said:

Back in the day, when football was in the shite – hooliganism, falling gates, awful stadiums – there were often proposals for regionalising the lower divisions of the League. Particularly, there were several plans for combining the 4th division and the top non-league clubs, and dividing this into North and South divisions. And, with the establishment of the Alliance/Conference, this idea was revived with renewed interest.

I was always opposed to this. As a supporter of a leading non-league club, I wanted to see my club in its rightful place: the Football League. I did not want us to be in a watered-down 4th division, invited in, instead of earning our place. And, more importantly, going from playing national football, back to regional football again.

It seemed an entirely backward step to me. It would effectively have changed our ambition to that of being promoted to the 3rd division (so we could return to the prestige of playing national football) – a much harder target than just getting into the 4th division (which, in those days, was much weaker than today’s League Two).

However, a lot has changed since then, and I now find myself warming to the idea of higher-level regional football. In the old days, the possibility of getting into the League was almost non-existent, it had only happened half a dozen times since the war – we ourselves discovered just how hard, and unfair- it was. But now automatic promotion is established and accepted, and this has made the National League effectively the 5th division of the English football. It has also raised standards considerably in both the National League and League Two.

This has had a two-fold impact on League Two and National clubs: It has created a pool of 30-40 clubs of similar ability (and not-dissimilar support), distinguishable from each other only in their history and stadium heritage. But it has also increased costs in both leagues, as much higher standards are now expected, and made it much harder to run a small club on football revenue alone. If clubs had to survive on gate income alone, there would be many fewer teams – in both the National and League Two.

So, a two-stage “4th Division” already effectively exists. The only difference from the plans envisaged back in the 80s is that this ‘greater’ 4th Division is divided into two by history, instead of geography. And, whereas, in the 80s most clubs (pro and semi-pro) could struggle on by simply not spending any money on their facilities, these days, simply staging football games (meeting both the legal and supporter expectations) has become prohibitively expensive.

Combining and regionalising the two divisions would therefore now make a lot more sense. Not only would it greatly reduce travel costs (nearly all games reachable in under two hours, many in under an hour), but it would also increase the number of derby games and increase all gates, as most games became local aways.

And, with automatic promotion/relegation an established part of the league structure, there would no longer be the stigma of not playing in a national league. The realistic ambition of most clubs in the new, regionalised League Two would be to gain promotion to League Three, exactly as it is for us now to aim at League Two membership. Added to that, we would find ourselves regularly playing clubs once considered as ‘above’ us (regular Gills-Stones derbies, anyone?).

And how many Stones supporters would genuinely miss the long drag to places like Barrow, Gateshead, Fylde and Hartlepool?

Revolutionary in at least two ways:

"The realistic ambition of most clubs in ... League Two would be to gain promotion to League Three" - currently that would be a relegation!

Measuring UK distances in kilometres, that sort of european standardisation will never catch on. Perhaps we should allow the country to vote on it?

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2017 15:20:58 GMT pedant said:

Dec 16, 2017 23:31:12 GMT @johndaubneyslegs said:

Revolutionary in at least two ways:

"The realistic ambition of most clubs in ... League Two would be to gain promotion to League Three" - currently that would be a relegation!

Measuring UK distances in kilometres, that sort of european standardisation will never catch on. Perhaps we should allow the country to vote on it?

Bugger - I meant L1! I shall edit it - leaving your post looking rather silly!

I'm never EVER letting this bloody country vote on ANYTHING ever again! If this Brexshit madness actually happens, I'll be the only non-EU citizen in my family!!

[spurstone]

Dec 16, 2017 23:31:12 GMT @johndaubneyslegs said:

Back in the day, when football was in the shite – hooliganism, falling gates, awful stadiums – there were often proposals for regionalising the lower divisions of the League. Particularly, there were several plans for combining the 4th division and the top non-league clubs, and dividing this into North and South divisions. And, with the establishment of the Alliance/Conference, this idea was revived with renewed interest.

I was always opposed to this. As a supporter of a leading non-league club, I wanted to see my club in its rightful place: the Football League. I did not want us to be in a watered-down 4th division, invited in, instead of earning our place. And, more importantly, going from playing national football, back to regional football again.

It seemed an entirely backward step to me. It would effectively have changed our ambition to that of being promoted to the 3rd division (so we could return to the prestige of playing national football) – a much harder target than just getting into the 4th division (which, in those days, was much weaker than today’s League Two).

However, a lot has changed since then, and I now find myself warming to the idea of higher-level regional football. In the old days, the possibility of getting into the League was almost non-existent, it had only happened half a dozen times since the war – we ourselves discovered just how hard, and unfair- it was. But now automatic promotion is established and accepted, and this has made the National League effectively the 5th division of the English football. It has also raised standards considerably in both the National League and League Two.

This has had a two-fold impact on League Two and National clubs: It has created a pool of 30-40 clubs of similar ability (and not-dissimilar support), distinguishable from each other only in their history and stadium heritage. But it has also increased costs in both leagues, as much higher standards are now expected, and made it much harder to run a small club on football revenue alone. If clubs had to survive on gate income alone, there would be many fewer teams – in both the National and League Two.

So, a two-stage “4th Division” already effectively exists. The only difference from the plans envisaged back in the 80s is that this ‘greater’ 4th Division is divided into two by history, instead of geography. And, whereas, in the 80s most clubs (pro and semi-pro) could struggle on by simply not spending any money on their facilities, these days, simply staging football games (meeting both the legal and supporter expectations) has become prohibitively expensive.

Combining and regionalising the two divisions would therefore now make a lot more sense. Not only would it greatly reduce travel costs (nearly all games reachable in under two hours, many in under an hour), but it would also increase the number of derby games and increase all gates, as most games became local aways.

And, with automatic promotion/relegation an established part of the league structure, there would no longer be the stigma of not playing in a national league. The realistic ambition of most clubs in the new, regionalised League Two would be to gain promotion to League One, exactly as it is for us now to aim at League Two membership. Added to that, we would find ourselves regularly playing clubs once considered as ‘above’ us (regular Gills-Stones derbies, anyone?).

And how many Stones supporters would genuinely miss the long drag to places like Barrow, Gateshead, Fylde and Hartlepool?

Columnist in NLP with a piece on this very matter today.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2017 21:02:30 GMT spurstone said:

[

Columnist in NLP with a piece on this very matter today. [/quote]

Not me! (unfortunately)

What did he say/think?

[spurstone]

Dec 17, 2017 21:11:12 GMT @johndaubneyslegs said:

Dec 17, 2017 21:02:30 GMT spurstone said:

[

Columnist in NLP with a piece on this very matter today.

Not me! (unfortunately)

What did he say/think?[/quote]


Opening two sentences. "The clue is in the title: National League. As in, not local.". But article does suggest ways things could be made easier through fixture scheduling.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2017 21:33:17 GMT spurstone said:

Dec 17, 2017 21:11:12 GMT @johndaubneyslegs said:

Columnist in NLP with a piece on this very matter today.

Not me! (unfortunately)

What did he say/think?

Opening two sentences. "The clue is in the title: National League. As in, not local.". But article does suggest ways things could be made easier through fixture scheduling.[/quote]

Ta. As I said, until recently I would have agreed, but I no longer think you have to be national to be taken seriously at our level. And, if you look at the distances involved in the 'northern' half of our league, the savings and benefits would be substantial.

Trying to make fixture scheduling 'fairer' is an absolute nightmare. I was once responsible for organising breaks and early finishes for a night shift of just 8 people, and a relatively simple schedule like that was difficult enough!

[spurstone]

Dec 17, 2017 21:45:33 GMT @johndaubneyslegs said:

Dec 17, 2017 21:33:17 GMT spurstone said:

Not me! (unfortunately)

What did he say/think?

Opening two sentences. "The clue is in the title: National League. As in, not local.". But article does suggest ways things could be made easier through fixture scheduling.

Ta. As I said, until recently I would have agreed, but I no longer think you have to be national to be taken seriously at our level. And, if you look at the distances involved in the 'northern' half of our league, the savings and benefits would be substantial.

Trying to make fixture scheduling 'fairer' is an absolute nightmare. I was once responsible for organising breaks and early finishes for a night shift of just 8 people, and a relatively simple schedule like that was difficult enough![/quote]


Fair point. I am done with organising now too and have retreated to roles that don't require anything other than organising myself and that is difficult enough haha. Like you though, I remember liking the national thing , and, unless it kills my club and/or football at lower levels in general, I'd like to see it stay that way. Just my opinion of course...