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Post by hongkongstone on Sept 25, 2019 2:43:56 GMT
The more I think about Bojos plotting, the more incredulous I become. There is a certain irony that he got the news while at the UN conference, where he ends up looking a total fuckwit in the eyes all the key foreign leaders. Trouble is, that makes the UK as a whole look stupid and there should be a price to pay for that, namely kicked out of politics, with all his cronies for good. Yet on the six o'clock news we still have people in Stoke, saying he is an ok guy and a strong PM. Express, Sun and Mail readers, no doubt, but sadly there are all too many of them. Which is why we can expect to see BoJo wriggling around politics for some time yet... Trust me, as someone who lives overseas I have had to put up with the rest of the world laughing at UK governance (or lack of) for the past 3.5 years. Spent last night getting ribbed by Americans of all people over this latest farce (and they have notbing to be proud of either!).
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Post by 61666 on Sept 25, 2019 7:33:39 GMT
Speaking of Uncle Sam, Donald Trump's reaction to Greta Thunberg was beyond contempt too. 'She seems a happy girl, looking forward to her future' was his comment, after wandering in to the conference, looking at his watch, then wandering out again to attend some religious group event. Agent Orange of course disputes the whole climate change thing, probably because he hasn't thought of a way to make a profit from it. Plus the fact that, being old, he is not worrying about it affecting his generation. Am sure there are many intelligent, caring Americans around, but the ones you come across on holiday, both here and in Europe, mostly strike me as shallow and fatuous, without a clue as to what is going on in the world around them, unless it involves them making money.
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Post by jdl on Sept 25, 2019 8:46:59 GMT
During the last episode of 'Embarrassing American President' (George W Bush), I got into conversation with an American on the train to Vienna, and the first thing he did was to apologise for his president!
Personally, I've so sick of the questions about Brexit and foreigners' reactions (mostly bemused and sympathetic, but, increasingly these days, more mocking and dismissive), that I actively avoid discussing politics, or even admitting I'm British, when we're abroad.
If the Tories' aim was to destroy the regard Britain was held in internationally, they've done a dammed good job.
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Post by Better things to do in life on Sept 25, 2019 10:51:31 GMT
At last it's official, BoJo is a lying cheating good for nothing who should not be in charge of a deckchair, never mind the country. Regardless of where anyone stands on Brexit, this has to be a good day for democracy. He was only voted in by a handful of card carrying Tory members, so the sooner he disappears the better. 11 non elected judges making a major political decision over a PM voted in by his party (and a democratically elected MP in his own right) and over a national referendum vote of the whole nation is hardly a triumph for democracy. Your Boris hatred - which is getting quite sickening on this forum - is clouding your view of reality.
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Post by daveu on Sept 25, 2019 12:06:49 GMT
Speaking of Uncle Sam, Donald Trump's reaction to Greta Thunberg was beyond contempt too. Although to be fair, her blaming of an entire generation is pretty contemptible too. If she's like most of her generation, she has presumably grown up in a environment with multiple games consoles, a new phone every 18 months, multiple home entertainment systems, on demand central heating, new clothes when fashion changes rather because they're worn out, fast food, driven everywhere by mum or dad, the list goes on and on. I grew up in a house with one radio, no TV until I was about 12, no car, new clothes only when they wore out or you outgrew them, no central heating, we recycled bottles by taking them back to the shop and getting the returnable deposit, the only fast food outlet was the local chippy, the vast array of power hungry devices available today didn't exist back then. And again the list goes on and on. To paraphrase her speech, how dare she blame my generation when hers are far more responsible for environmental decline than mine ever was. Stop whining and get back to school where you belong.
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Post by 61666 on Sept 25, 2019 12:39:57 GMT
At last it's official, BoJo is a lying cheating good for nothing who should not be in charge of a deckchair, never mind the country. Regardless of where anyone stands on Brexit, this has to be a good day for democracy. He was only voted in by a handful of card carrying Tory members, so the sooner he disappears the better. 11 non elected judges making a major political decision over a PM voted in by his party (and a democratically elected MP in his own right) and over a national referendum vote of the whole nation is hardly a triumph for democracy. Your Boris hatred - which is getting quite sickening on this forum - is clouding your view of reality. Not just me saying this. All the opposition parties and a fair proportion of his own party are fed up with him as well.
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Post by daveu on Sept 25, 2019 12:51:20 GMT
Regardless of your opinions on Boris's honesty and integrity, regardless of whether you believe his motives were the good of the country or his own self interest, what you surely can't deny is his lack of judgement yet again in getting involved in a fight he wasn't going to win. Proroguing parliament was a misjudgement of the highest order to go along with a whole catalogue of (at best) misguided decisions he has made since becoming PM, and even trailing back into his time as foreign secretary and even Mayor of London. Whether you believe he is honest or not, he clearly isn't fit to govern a creche let alone a country.
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Post by Better things to do in life on Sept 25, 2019 13:59:51 GMT
Regardless of your opinions on Boris's honesty and integrity, regardless of whether you believe his motives were the good of the country or his own self interest, what you surely can't deny is his lack of judgement yet again in getting involved in a fight he wasn't going to win. Proroguing parliament was a misjudgement of the highest order to go along with a whole catalogue of (at best) misguided decisions he has made since becoming PM, and even trailing back into his time as foreign secretary and even Mayor of London. Whether you believe he is honest or not, he clearly isn't fit to govern a creche let alone a country. Depends on your view, Dave. You see Boris as lacking judgement and lack of wisdom, others see him as ballsy enough to take on the right path in the light of tremendous opposition and lack of resources in an almost impossible situation to resolve, in a Churchill like fashion others like whereas other like Theresa May (Neville Chamberlain in this scenario) took the "nice" route, tried to please everyone, and got nowhere. His time as Mayor, and in many other roles and jobs he has done (author, journalist etc), were very successful, but that is now all conveniently forgotten and sacrificed on the altar of everyone tearing him down as he records another ballsy attempt to get things done only to be pulled down by the many, many, others in Parliament and the Judiciary with many many other alterior motives between them! I thinks its ludicrous to say this one man is trying to engineer everything for HIS individual personal gain in an absolute circus of many, many others doing that (Corbyn, Bercow, the Liberals, the EU, just about EVERYBODY other than Boris and the people!) - which of, course is rarely mentioned Also, why on earth would he put himself through all of this abuse and attack unless he had that Churchillian streak of trying to do what's right? There are many other ways he could be directing his life to get power, fame or whatever much more effective than this! So why does he persist? Maybe its actually because he IS our modern day Churchill! As I say, its all down to personal views, but the incessant and very personal attacks on him are becoming very unsavoury, and unnescessary.
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Post by Nick on Sept 25, 2019 14:02:07 GMT
His judgement and track record over the years has been appalling, so why expect anything different from him now he is Prime Minister ? But daveu, qualities like honesty and integrity do matter, they are not optional extras.
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Post by jdl on Sept 25, 2019 14:03:17 GMT
Speaking of Uncle Sam, Donald Trump's reaction to Greta Thunberg was beyond contempt too. Although to be fair, her blaming of an entire generation is pretty contemptible too. If she's like most of her generation, she has presumably grown up in a environment with multiple games consoles, a new phone every 18 months, multiple home entertainment systems, on demand central heating, new clothes when fashion changes rather because they're worn out, fast food, driven everywhere by mum or dad, the list goes on and on. I grew up in a house with one radio, no TV until I was about 12, no car, new clothes only when they wore out or you outgrew them, no central heating, we recycled bottles by taking them back to the shop and getting the returnable deposit, the only fast food outlet was the local chippy, the vast array of power hungry devices available today didn't exist back then. And again the list goes on and on. To paraphrase her speech, how dare she blame my generation when hers are far more responsible for environmental decline than mine ever was. Stop whining and get back to school where you belong. That's big of you, Dave. Doesn't stop her being dead right though. I've never owned a car, been a vegetarian for half my life, was recycling long before the council collected it, buy organic and low food miles whenever I can, had green electricity and gas for 20 years, supported the Greens, FotE, Greenpeace, etc, been on demos - and been mocked for doing all this most of that time. And yet when my 14 and 10 year olds ask me what I've done - what my generation have done - to stop the disaster they are going to live with, I have to hold up my hands and say "nowehere near enough".
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Post by jdl on Sept 25, 2019 14:59:25 GMT
At last it's official, BoJo is a lying cheating good for nothing who should not be in charge of a deckchair, never mind the country. Regardless of where anyone stands on Brexit, this has to be a good day for democracy. He was only voted in by a handful of card carrying Tory members, so the sooner he disappears the better. 11 non elected judges making a major political decision over a PM voted in by his party (and a democratically elected MP in his own right) and over a national referendum vote of the whole nation is hardly a triumph for democracy. Your Boris hatred - which is getting quite sickening on this forum - is clouding your view of reality. We are a parliamentary democracy, not a representative one. Parliament is sovereign - not the PM, not the government, not the people, not even the Sovereign! The PM is not some sort of president; he is just the Queen's first minister (not ours). All the Supreme Court did was uphold this. The primary purpose of any Supreme Court is exactly that - to uphold the constitution (whether written or not), and prevent any abuse of power. Our system, as in most democratic countries, involves a balance of power - the Queen, Parliament, and the Judiciary - without one of those, or with one of them running roughshod over the others, we cease to be a democracy. Referenda have no place in any of this. That's why they are always advisory - there is no constitutional way of consulting the people, other than via elections and Parliament. Parliament is (usually) wise to pay attention to referenda, but it doesn't have to, constitutionally, or legally. Over the years, Parliament has frequently brought in laws that defied the "will of the people" - outlawing capital punishment, legalising abortion, gay marriage, even making seat belts compulsory. This is how our system works - it isn't designed to listen to 'the people', it's intended to do the best for the people - even if they don't agree with it. And, because there is no constitutional place for referenda, there are, unfortunately, no rules governing how they are run. In democratic countries where referenda are part of the system, there are strict rules about the validity of the result - for instance a threshold for voter participation, and/or a minimum vote for/against. In other democracies, where referenda aren't used, there are similar rules for constitutional changes - typically they need a vote of over 2/3rds of MPs/representatives before the result is valid. Only in the UK can you have the insane situation where only 37% of the electorate vote for something, in an advisory referendum, and this then becomes "the will of the people". Even to call a public services strike, you need at least 40% of the electorate (union members) to vote for the strike before it is regarded as legal (the Tories, rather ironically, set this limit). In summary, the actions of the Supreme Court were entirely (and properly) constitutional - whether you agree with them or not. But Johnson's actions were not constitutional. And, unfortunately, nor was the referendum.
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Post by 61666 on Sept 25, 2019 15:06:27 GMT
Neatly explained, but Brexiteers won't accept it, because they 'won' and as far as they are concerned everyone has been carping about it since. It's what happens if you only read the Mail, Express, Sun or Telegraph. Not that the Mirror or Guardian will provide a balanced view either, so it always helps to read and listen more widely.
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Post by daveu on Sept 25, 2019 15:27:57 GMT
Regardless of your opinions on Boris's honesty and integrity, regardless of whether you believe his motives were the good of the country or his own self interest, what you surely can't deny is his lack of judgement yet again in getting involved in a fight he wasn't going to win. Proroguing parliament was a misjudgement of the highest order to go along with a whole catalogue of (at best) misguided decisions he has made since becoming PM, and even trailing back into his time as foreign secretary and even Mayor of London. Whether you believe he is honest or not, he clearly isn't fit to govern a creche let alone a country. Depends on your view, Dave. You see Boris as lacking judgement and lack of wisdom, others see him as ballsy enough to take on the right path in the light of tremendous opposition and lack of resources in an almost impossible situation to resolve, in a Churchill like fashion others like whereas other like Theresa May (Neville Chamberlain in this scenario) took the "nice" route, tried to please everyone, and got nowhere. His time as Mayor, and in many other roles and jobs he has done (author, journalist etc), were very successful, but that is now all conveniently forgotten and sacrificed on the altar of everyone tearing him down as he records another ballsy attempt to get things done only to be pulled down by the many, many, others in Parliament and the Judiciary with many many other alterior motives between them! I thinks its ludicrous to say this one man is trying to engineer everything for HIS individual personal gain in an absolute circus of many, many others doing that (Corbyn, Bercow, the Liberals, the EU, just about EVERYBODY other than Boris and the people!) - which of, course is rarely mentioned Also, why on earth would he put himself through all of this abuse and attack unless he had that Churchillian streak of trying to do what's right? There are many other ways he could be directing his life to get power, fame or whatever much more effective than this! So why does he persist? Maybe its actually because he IS our modern day Churchill! As I say, its all down to personal views, but the incessant and very personal attacks on him are becoming very unsavoury, and unnescessary. You're seriously comparing him with Churchill. Wow!!! Just unbelievable. If you're naive enough to worship him that's up to you but don't accuse me of unsavoury personal attacks just because I see him for what he really is.
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Post by daveu on Sept 25, 2019 15:29:25 GMT
Although to be fair, her blaming of an entire generation is pretty contemptible too. If she's like most of her generation, she has presumably grown up in a environment with multiple games consoles, a new phone every 18 months, multiple home entertainment systems, on demand central heating, new clothes when fashion changes rather because they're worn out, fast food, driven everywhere by mum or dad, the list goes on and on. I grew up in a house with one radio, no TV until I was about 12, no car, new clothes only when they wore out or you outgrew them, no central heating, we recycled bottles by taking them back to the shop and getting the returnable deposit, the only fast food outlet was the local chippy, the vast array of power hungry devices available today didn't exist back then. And again the list goes on and on. To paraphrase her speech, how dare she blame my generation when hers are far more responsible for environmental decline than mine ever was. Stop whining and get back to school where you belong. That's big of you, Dave. Doesn't stop her being dead right though. I've never owned a car, been a vegetarian for half my life, was recycling long before the council collected it, buy organic and low food miles whenever I can, had green electricity and gas for 20 years, supported the Greens, FotE, Greenpeace, etc, been on demos - and been mocked for doing all this most of that time. And yet when my 14 and 10 year olds ask me what I've done - what my generation have done - to stop the disaster they are going to live with, I have to hold up my hands and say "nowehere near enough". She's not right. She's a self entitled little bitch.
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Post by headstone on Sept 25, 2019 15:30:38 GMT
I've just been watching The Rise of the Nazis, and how Hitler managed to dismantle democracy in six months..... Oh bugger, I mentioned Hitler already.
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