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Post by nws on Sept 12, 2019 23:03:47 GMT
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Post by shamstone on Sept 12, 2019 23:43:28 GMT
Specsavers do a hearing aid Admittedly, I don't walk about thinking that everyone with a foreign accent is a homicidal maniac so I may not have noticed one. As for Specsavers...I think your eyes and ears work it is just that Dominic Cummings has convinced you to ignore the evidence they provide I’m sitting on the fence now. Totally pissed off with what’s going. The politicians have gone completely off the scale
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Post by sword65 on Sept 13, 2019 7:49:00 GMT
I would like to announce the death of Jason Scott Taylor aged 23 of Cramlington ,Northumberland. My cousin was taken Ill last evening and died early hours. He was a young man full of life 2years into his degree and loyal to his family and country. He was a LEAVER I tell you this so maybe you can use our decreased majority to your advantage as for me I am to upset to care.
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Post by hammerstone on Sept 13, 2019 10:27:52 GMT
I would like to announce the death of Jason Scott Taylor aged 23 of Cramlington ,Northumberland. My cousin was taken Ill last evening and died early hours. He was a young man full of life 2years into his degree and loyal to his family and country. He was a LEAVER I tell you this so maybe you can use our decreased majority to your advantage as for me I am to upset to care. Sorry for your loss sword
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Post by toonarmy on Sept 13, 2019 10:30:37 GMT
I would like to announce the death of Jason Scott Taylor aged 23 of Cramlington ,Northumberland. My cousin was taken Ill last evening and died early hours. He was a young man full of life 2years into his degree and loyal to his family and country. He was a LEAVER I tell you this so maybe you can use our decreased majority to your advantage as for me I am to upset to care. Thoughts and prayers are with you mate at this terrible time
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Post by Better things to do in life on Sept 13, 2019 10:44:28 GMT
I would like to announce the death of Jason Scott Taylor aged 23 of Cramlington ,Northumberland. My cousin was taken Ill last evening and died early hours. He was a young man full of life 2years into his degree and loyal to his family and country. He was a LEAVER I tell you this so maybe you can use our decreased majority to your advantage as for me I am to upset to care. Thoughts and prayers are with you mate at this terrible time Absolutely - hang on in there Sword, puts things into perspective for sure. Maybe time to end this anger creation, never ending, changing nothing, and totally pointless political thread (on a football forum) on this note? Whatever happens in Westminster, there are far far far more important things in life.
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Post by fleetphil on Sept 13, 2019 10:46:27 GMT
So sorry to hear of your loss sword.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 11:29:32 GMT
I would like to announce the death of Jason Scott Taylor aged 23 of Cramlington ,Northumberland. My cousin was taken Ill last evening and died early hours. He was a young man full of life 2years into his degree and loyal to his family and country. He was a LEAVER I tell you this so maybe you can use our decreased majority to your advantage as for me I am to upset to care. Tragically young age to lose one's life and you have my deepest sympathies for this appalling loss. I'm not sure that had I been in your position my grief would have led me to this forum to make a point an a political debate. As others have said surely the loss is bigger and more important than that.
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Post by sword65 on Sept 13, 2019 12:17:58 GMT
I would like to announce the death of Jason Scott Taylor aged 23 of Cramlington ,Northumberland. My cousin was taken Ill last evening and died early hours. He was a young man full of life 2years into his degree and loyal to his family and country. He was a LEAVER I tell you this so maybe you can use our decreased majority to your advantage as for me I am to upset to care. Tragically young age to lose one's life and you have my deepest sympathies for this appalling loss. I'm not sure that had I been in your position my grief would have led me to this forum to make a point an a political debate. As others have said surely the loss is bigger and more important than that. You are right of course I am just angry . I am a tired out wreck of a human being who, on bad days, would welcome death with open arms and yet I live and a 23 year old lad who looked so fit is dead, it's not fair and I would gladly have swapped places. As for making a political statement that was wrong of me and I apologise. Thank you all for your thoughts and I hope to see you at Dorking COYS!
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Post by Better things to do in life on Sept 13, 2019 12:54:05 GMT
Tragically young age to lose one's life and you have my deepest sympathies for this appalling loss. I'm not sure that had I been in your position my grief would have led me to this forum to make a point an a political debate. As others have said surely the loss is bigger and more important than that. You are right of course I am just angry . I am a tired out wreck of a human being who, on bad days, would welcome death with open arms and yet I live and a 23 year old lad who looked so fit is dead, it's not fair and I would gladly have swapped places. As for making a political statement that was wrong of me and I apologise. Thank you all for your thoughts and I hope to see you at Dorking COYS! No need to apologise Sword, as we all know where you are coming from. Keep strong.
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Post by gromley on Sept 14, 2019 12:22:31 GMT
I'm sick of this glib 'there were lies on both sides' argument as though there is equivalence. That wasn't really the argument I was trying to make so let me clarify. There were claims made by both sides and in all cases the other side had the opportunity to counter them and in most cases did. This is nothing different than pretty much any and all exercises in democracy. In fact it would probably be fair to say that the remainers countering the leave arguments were perhaps more convincing than the reverse. The "number on the bus" was pretty categorical rubbished as been a gross not net number - totally convincing and categoric. Cameron/Osbourne's (and many economics institutions) talk of emergency budgets and economic melt down - was countered with "vested interests" & "project fear" - Not at all convincing - although in the end proven correct.
And there you have one of the factors that tipped the balance for me personally to vote leave.
We are asked to choose between leaving the EU or staying in a reformed EU. Prior to referendum Cameron went to the EU to seek reforms on some of the points of issue and came back with reforms that we were clearly told were absolutely as the EU was prepared to go. The amounted to nothing of real consequence imho.
So I don't buy the argument that the EU can be reformed from within. (Or at least perhaps not anywhere as easily as reformed from without).
There was reinforcement to this on the day after the referendum when Merkel was bleating on about what a blow to the plans for political union this was. (Sure we got opt out of political union, but that would just leave us ever more marginalised in a club moving in a very different direction.
Anyway we are where we are. I don't agree the case for a second referendum, but were there to be one I see nothing that would make me voted differently.
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Post by gromley on Sept 14, 2019 12:24:17 GMT
Interesting research data in a new book that has just been published by Rob Ford titled 'Sex, Lies and Politics' On the matter of sex, it suggests that Leave voters are essentially conservative who favour stability, familiarity and continuity. Remain voters tend to be more adventurous, progressive, open minded, experimental and prepared to accept new ideas and change. On the matter of telling lies it appears that it is more prevalent with those people who take their politics seriously, whatever their viewpoint ! What say you sword ?
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Post by nws on Sept 14, 2019 13:08:46 GMT
Admittedly, I don't walk about thinking that everyone with a foreign accent is a homicidal maniac so I may not have noticed one. As for Specsavers...I think your eyes and ears work it is just that Dominic Cummings has convinced you to ignore the evidence they provide I’m sitting on the fence now. Totally pissed off with what’s going. The politicians have gone completely off the scale Just keep reading it and ignore the slogans etc. They are very good at that. I listened to an interview with the journalist that broke the Yellowhammer story. According to her, the document presented as 'worst case scenario' recently has been relabelled because it was originally labelled as 'base case scenario'. Apparently, Michael Gove admitted it was base case scenario in a commons select committee. You have to question why they are lying
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Post by nws on Sept 14, 2019 13:28:43 GMT
I'm sick of this glib 'there were lies on both sides' argument as though there is equivalence. That wasn't really the argument I was trying to make so let me clarify. There were claims made by both sides and in all cases the other side had the opportunity to counter them and in most cases did. This is nothing different than pretty much any and all exercises in democracy. In fact it would probably be fair to say that the remainers countering the leave arguments were perhaps more convincing than the reverse. The "number on the bus" was pretty categorical rubbished as been a gross not net number - totally convincing and categoric. Cameron/Osbourne's (and many economics institutions) talk of emergency budgets and economic melt down - was countered with "vested interests" & "project fear" - Not at all convincing - although in the end proven correct. And there you have one of the factors that tipped the balance for me personally to vote leave. We are asked to choose between leaving the EU or staying in a reformed EU. Prior to referendum Cameron went to the EU to seek reforms on some of the points of issue and came back with reforms that we were clearly told were absolutely as the EU was prepared to go. The amounted to nothing of real consequence imho. So I don't buy the argument that the EU can be reformed from within. (Or at least perhaps not anywhere as easily as reformed from without). There was reinforcement to this on the day after the referendum when Merkel was bleating on about what a blow to the plans for political union this was. (Sure we got opt out of political union, but that would just leave us ever more marginalised in a club moving in a very different direction. Anyway we are where we are. I don't agree the case for a second referendum, but were there to be one I see nothing that would make me voted differently.
If the bus thing was so well countered then why did Dominic Cummings claim it was his best weapon in the campaign. Again I point you towards the point that the 'economic meltdown' claims were over exaggerated but they were a forecast and actions were taken to mitigate them. We still saw some economic effects such as imported inflation due to currency fluctuations. You could argue that the German car manufacturers claim or sunlit uplands was in the same mould although without economic modelling. What you cannot claim is that the £350m on the bus, the technological solution for the Irish border, the Lisbon treaty or the GATT 24 claims were anything other than downright and disgraceful lies. You cannot argue that electoral fraud (which ended up being uncontested) meant the vote was not democratic. On currency fluctuations, it's becoming apparent that people have made and stand to make plenty on a falling pound. I think many of those have inside knowledge of brexit and this is what this is all about. I don't disagree that the EU can be a little inflexible. However, we already have some decent vetoes in place and we had agreement not to be part of closer political union. Again, I agree we could be somewhat marginailed but I would still rather that than lose our 70 odd trade deals. I would add that I differ from you in that I am not bothered by closer political union . That's just a difference in preference. Surely retaining the economic links and trade deals would have been good. I think we have been fooled into beliving we can unilaterally influence and successfully negotiate deals etc better than we can. I don't think the charlatans doing the convincing care. They are just looking to enrich themselves.
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Post by hongkongstone on Sept 15, 2019 2:37:24 GMT
That wasn't really the argument I was trying to make so let me clarify. There were claims made by both sides and in all cases the other side had the opportunity to counter them and in most cases did. This is nothing different than pretty much any and all exercises in democracy. In fact it would probably be fair to say that the remainers countering the leave arguments were perhaps more convincing than the reverse. The "number on the bus" was pretty categorical rubbished as been a gross not net number - totally convincing and categoric. Cameron/Osbourne's (and many economics institutions) talk of emergency budgets and economic melt down - was countered with "vested interests" & "project fear" - Not at all convincing - although in the end proven correct. And there you have one of the factors that tipped the balance for me personally to vote leave. We are asked to choose between leaving the EU or staying in a reformed EU. Prior to referendum Cameron went to the EU to seek reforms on some of the points of issue and came back with reforms that we were clearly told were absolutely as the EU was prepared to go. The amounted to nothing of real consequence imho. So I don't buy the argument that the EU can be reformed from within. (Or at least perhaps not anywhere as easily as reformed from without). There was reinforcement to this on the day after the referendum when Merkel was bleating on about what a blow to the plans for political union this was. (Sure we got opt out of political union, but that would just leave us ever more marginalised in a club moving in a very different direction. Anyway we are where we are. I don't agree the case for a second referendum, but were there to be one I see nothing that would make me voted differently.
If the bus thing was so well countered then why did Dominic Cummings claim it was his best weapon in the campaign. Again I point you towards the point that the 'economic meltdown' claims were over exaggerated but they were a forecast and actions were taken to mitigate them. We still saw some economic effects such as imported inflation due to currency fluctuations. You could argue that the German car manufacturers claim or sunlit uplands was in the same mould although without economic modelling. What you cannot claim is that the £350m on the bus, the technological solution for the Irish border, the Lisbon treaty or the GATT 24 claims were anything other than downright and disgraceful lies. You cannot argue that electoral fraud (which ended up being uncontested) meant the vote was not democratic. On currency fluctuations, it's becoming apparent that people have made and stand to make plenty on a falling pound. I think many of those have inside knowledge of brexit and this is what this is all about. I don't disagree that the EU can be a little inflexible. However, we already have some decent vetoes in place and we had agreement not to be part of closer political union. Again, I agree we could be somewhat marginailed but I would still rather that than lose our 70 odd trade deals. I would add that I differ from you in that I am not bothered by closer political union . That's just a difference in preference. Surely retaining the economic links and trade deals would have been good. I think we have been fooled into beliving we can unilaterally influence and successfully negotiate deals etc better than we can. I don't think the charlatans doing the convincing care. They are just looking to enrich themselves. And to avoid EU taxation law on offshore funds after Jan 1st 2020
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