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Post by daveu on Dec 26, 2018 11:28:18 GMT
As a bit of Xmas philosophy I will invoke the "Ship of Theseus" conundrum on the concept of identity. As a quick summary, is the Ship of Thesueus the one that has over time lost all of it's original parts only to be replaced with new ones or is the boat constructed later on and made up of the recovered parts originally lost from the first boat? Which one is the Ship of Theseus? There was a legal case a few years ago where it was referenced when someone claimed that the car they were selling was "Bentley #1", the first Bentley ever built, where the counter claim was that there wasn't an original part on the vehicle. The case was awarded to the owner of "Bentley #1" on the basis that whilst there were no original parts that the car, that it had maintained the original identity over time. Transferring this to the MUFC example under discussion, it is is not any one part of players, fans, management, owners, holding companies, ground etc. that defines the club but IS the identity that exists as a continuation, in whatever format, from 1898. Anyway, Merry Xmas from Hong Kong and something for everyone to discuss over turkey sandwiches (or hair of the dog) on your Boxing Day recovery sessions. Just like Trigger in Only fools and horses being given an award for using the same broom for 30 years even though it's had 14 new heads and 9 new handles. I believe trigger's broom is now used in most English speaking countries to describe anything that has a continued existence even though all of it's original parts are a long distant memory.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 11:49:59 GMT
A difficult conundrum. It is of course true that we wouldn't be where we are without T&O, and probably wouldn't be anywhere at all without PBB. But when I first supported the Stones, the manager was Barry Watling, and the club was run by Jim Thompson. Neither of them are still at the club. Also, of course, none of the players I watched in those days are still at the club. And the club itself died and was reborn, and now plays in an entirely different location. And yet, on an average JWW matchday, I will still see somewhere between a couple and a dozen of the fans I used to see regularly at London Road. So, despite what PBB did for us, and what T&O have given us - and with absolutely no disrespect to any of them, we are forever in their debt - I have to say the one constant of the club, the thing that makes the club, that links the modern-day MUFC, to the old one of 40 or more years ago - is the supporters. As a bit of Xmas philosophy I will invoke the "Ship of Theseus" conundrum on the concept of identity. As a quick summary, is the Ship of Thesueus the one that has over time lost all of it's original parts only to be replaced with new ones or is the boat constructed later on and made up of the recovered parts originally lost from the first boat? Which one is the Ship of Theseus? There was a legal case a few years ago where it was referenced when someone claimed that the car they were selling was "Bentley #1", the first Bentley ever built, where the counter claim was that there wasn't an original part on the vehicle. The case was awarded to the owner of "Bentley #1" on the basis that whilst there were no original parts that the car, that it had maintained the original identity over time. Transferring this to the MUFC example under discussion, it is is not any one part of players, fans, management, owners, holding companies, ground etc. that defines the club as these are all transient. But the club is the IDENTITY that exists as a continuation in whatever format, even Maidstone Invicta, from 1898. Anyway, Merry Xmas from Hong Kong and something for everyone to discuss over turkey sandwiches (or hair of the dog) during Boxing Day recovery sessions (hopefully also including the Dover game within this definition). All the cells in a human body (except tooth enamel and some others, forgotten which) change every few months but the person remains the same. Apart from sword who turns into a spaceman and back.
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Post by jdl on Dec 26, 2018 13:11:17 GMT
I love the fact that the Ship of Theseus conundrum is upstaged by Trigger's broom - and on a football forum!
It's a very interesting point though. I was devastated when Stones went bust, and yet, when I turned up on my first visit to JWW in 2012 and saw the team run out, I was instantly back home. The owners, the manager, the players, the stadium, most of the fans (even the playing surface!), had changed - and yet it felt exactly like the old Stones. The only thing that I think might have spoilt it for me is if the colours had changed - so maybe that's the one constant? The one bit of Trigger's broom that hadn't been replaced?
Paradoxically, when I went to see Invicta play at our old training ground, it didn't feel at all like the Stones, I didn't enjoy the game at all, it felt like a mockery of my old club, and I never went back. And, although I followed the Stones’ progress during the Wilderness Years, I never felt that it was 'my' team - until they came home. So, perhaps that’s another 'Trigger's broom' key - they had to be back in the town?
But perhaps these 'Trigger's broom' keys are different for each of us? nws, for instance, as he never tires of telling us, found the Wilderness Years Stones the more real option, and now doesn't like coming to watch the Stones at JWW - only finding something like what he remembers in distant away games (presumably because there are fewer fans?). For him, the 'Trigger's broom' keys are obviously different.
Perhaps it’s because our original ‘brooms’ are different? For nws, the ‘real’ Stones was a team with a few, diehard, fans, always playing away, and succeeding against the odds – but forever on the verge of folding. For me, the original Stones were a successful, ambitious, well supported, team, playing in their home town.
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Post by sword65 on Dec 26, 2018 14:11:05 GMT
I love the fact that the Ship of Theseus conundrum is upstaged by Trigger's broom - and on a football forum! It's a very interesting point though. I was devastated when Stones went bust, and yet, when I turned up on my first visit to JWW in 2012 and saw the team run out, I was instantly back home. The owners, the manager, the players, the stadium, most of the fans (even the playing surface!), had changed - and yet it felt exactly like the old Stones. The only thing that I think might have spoilt it for me is if the colours had changed - so maybe that's the one constant? The one bit of Trigger's broom that hadn't been replaced? Paradoxically, when I went to see Invicta play at our old training ground, it didn't feel at all like the Stones, I didn't enjoy the game at all, it felt like a mockery of my old club, and I never went back. And, although I followed the Stones’ progress during the Wilderness Years, I never felt that it was 'my' team - until they came home. So, perhaps that’s another 'Trigger's broom' key - they had to be back in the town? But perhaps these 'Trigger's broom' keys are different for each of us? nws, for instance, as he never tires of telling us, found the Wilderness Years Stones the more real option, and now doesn't like coming to watch the Stones at JWW - only finding something like what he remembers in distant away games (presumably because there are fewer fans?). For him, the 'Trigger's broom' keys are obviously different. Perhaps it’s because our original ‘brooms’ are different? For nws, the ‘real’ Stones was a team with a few, diehard, fans, always playing away, and succeeding against the odds – but forever on the verge of folding. For me, the original Stones were a successful, ambitious, well supported, team, playing in their home town. Or perhaps he just enjoyed getting arseoled on London Bridge station whilst missing train after train because we wouldn't let him go home.
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Post by nws on Dec 26, 2018 15:08:08 GMT
I love the fact that the Ship of Theseus conundrum is upstaged by Trigger's broom - and on a football forum! It's a very interesting point though. I was devastated when Stones went bust, and yet, when I turned up on my first visit to JWW in 2012 and saw the team run out, I was instantly back home. The owners, the manager, the players, the stadium, most of the fans (even the playing surface!), had changed - and yet it felt exactly like the old Stones. The only thing that I think might have spoilt it for me is if the colours had changed - so maybe that's the one constant? The one bit of Trigger's broom that hadn't been replaced? Paradoxically, when I went to see Invicta play at our old training ground, it didn't feel at all like the Stones, I didn't enjoy the game at all, it felt like a mockery of my old club, and I never went back. And, although I followed the Stones’ progress during the Wilderness Years, I never felt that it was 'my' team - until they came home. So, perhaps that’s another 'Trigger's broom' key - they had to be back in the town? But perhaps these 'Trigger's broom' keys are different for each of us? nws, for instance, as he never tires of telling us, found the Wilderness Years Stones the more real option, and now doesn't like coming to watch the Stones at JWW - only finding something like what he remembers in distant away games (presumably because there are fewer fans?). For him, the 'Trigger's broom' keys are obviously different. Perhaps it’s because our original ‘brooms’ are different? For nws, the ‘real’ Stones was a team with a few, diehard, fans, always playing away, and succeeding against the odds – but forever on the verge of folding. For me, the original Stones were a successful, ambitious, well supported, team, playing in their home town.
[/b] Oh dear. More fantasy talk. My first game was in 1976. I have seen us play every season from then on in. Thus, this silly attempt to pretend you are a longer standing fan or that I somehow 'ignored' the success of 1980s is nonsense. For me the Stones have been a mixed bag of successful 'Man U of the non-league' down to low-grade county league and back to where we are now. Our 'different brooms' are merely that I stuck with things through the thin of 'thick and thin', as opposed to claiming it was a mockery of a club and opting out. That 'mockery of a club' grew into what we are today. You are thus watching a mockery of your old club. As for chatting on about the 'old days'. Funny how it is OK for you to witter on about the 1980s but not OK for me to witter on about the 1990s or the 2000s. I'm less interested today because a) I have two daughters and want to spend time with them and b) There seem to be a lot of people treating things like it is Premiership and I find it rather tedious. Look around. I am not the only one who finds it thus. Finally, we were not always 'playing away'. We played at the old training ground through the 1990s. So for eight seasons an extra 200 yards made it impossible to attend. Apart from the complete pile of factual inaccuracy well done on an excellent post. A career in fiction awaits.
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Post by nws on Dec 26, 2018 15:16:37 GMT
I love the fact that the Ship of Theseus conundrum is upstaged by Trigger's broom - and on a football forum! It's a very interesting point though. I was devastated when Stones went bust, and yet, when I turned up on my first visit to JWW in 2012 and saw the team run out, I was instantly back home. The owners, the manager, the players, the stadium, most of the fans (even the playing surface!), had changed - and yet it felt exactly like the old Stones. The only thing that I think might have spoilt it for me is if the colours had changed - so maybe that's the one constant? The one bit of Trigger's broom that hadn't been replaced? Paradoxically, when I went to see Invicta play at our old training ground, it didn't feel at all like the Stones, I didn't enjoy the game at all, it felt like a mockery of my old club, and I never went back. And, although I followed the Stones’ progress during the Wilderness Years, I never felt that it was 'my' team - until they came home. So, perhaps that’s another 'Trigger's broom' key - they had to be back in the town? But perhaps these 'Trigger's broom' keys are different for each of us? nws, for instance, as he never tires of telling us, found the Wilderness Years Stones the more real option, and now doesn't like coming to watch the Stones at JWW - only finding something like what he remembers in distant away games (presumably because there are fewer fans?). For him, the 'Trigger's broom' keys are obviously different. Perhaps it’s because our original ‘brooms’ are different? For nws, the ‘real’ Stones was a team with a few, diehard, fans, always playing away, and succeeding against the odds – but forever on the verge of folding. For me, the original Stones were a successful, ambitious, well supported, team, playing in their home town. Or perhaps he just enjoyed getting arseoled on London Bridge station whilst missing train after train because we wouldn't let him go home. Mmmm...that should narrow down who you are quite considerably. If only I could remember who I was with that day
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