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Post by porkystone on Dec 27, 2018 6:41:22 GMT
Dover were there for the taking. First half was pretty turgid, but we were marginally the better if two awful sides. To be 1-0 up against a team that bad, surely second half we should have pressed high up the pitch and put them to the sword, but instead sat deeper and deeper. I said to my mate after about 50 minutes, there's no way we can hold out like this for another 40 minutes, and sure enough we utterly capitulated. No organisation, no desire, no heart, and in the end 3-1 for flattered us. Probably should have been 5 or 6 and probably would have been but for Worner. Surely this was Harry's last chance, the atmosphere after the third went in was toxic. So Bill, if we all took your advice and didn't turn up I guess you'd be lucky to get 300 on new year's day. Fortunately for the owners, football fans are loyal to the club however dire the performances, and however much we feel the manager is totally out of his depth. You'll probably still get 2000 through the gates on new year's day but I'd wager only a handful still support Harry Wheeler. Can't argue with any of this. Actually, I felt the atmosphere was pretty turgid from the start, no expectation of a win, just waiting for the inevitable cock ups to concede goals. A couple of random points about Crabble: a) Stewarding seemed more relaxed, but then there was little fight in the away Stones anyway. Especially enjoyed the sarcastic ' did you enjoy that ' comment from a steward having slogged up the hill to the away turnstiles b) Nice of Dover to arrange a banger racing demolition derby style free for all in the rugby field car park afterwards. Memo to self - never park on the inside of the carousel. Hope that chap managed to reattach his front bumper so rudely skewered off by a punter anxious to leave the scene of the crime...….
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Post by Nick on Dec 27, 2018 8:29:43 GMT
We saw the crunch from the hill above. Not good. Yep daveu summed it up well enough but I agree expectation were zero from the outset. Numbers of away support down on previous years (presumably taking Bill's advice). Stewards not so hostile as usual. Glad that Oliver came over and suffered with the rest of us. Hopefully the owners will now be able to act very quickly and do what has to be done.
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Post by daveu on Dec 27, 2018 8:38:37 GMT
Of course I haven't. Let's see what happens over the next five or six games. If we get nine or ten points then we are heading in the right direction. Yes, I'm sticking with him. We are a new club to this league. It is a very good quality league. We will do well to stay up. Under Jay we would have done well to stay up. We're not a new club to this league, this is our third season, only one less than Solihull who are doing pretty well. Saunders may have been past his sell by date, but he did enough to keep us up 2 seasons running. Whether he would have done it again is open to question but he wouldn't have done any worse than HW. All we've done is replaced him with a total novice and it's a gamble that's failed spectacularly.
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Post by aristotle38 on Dec 27, 2018 8:44:39 GMT
Of course I haven't. Let's see what happens over the next five or six games. If we get nine or ten points then we are heading in the right direction. Yes, I'm sticking with him. We are a new club to this league. It is a very good quality league. We will do well to stay up. Under Jay we would have done well to stay up. We're not a new club to this league, this is our third season, only one less than Solihull who are doing pretty well. Saunders may have been past his sell by date, but he did enough to keep us up 2 seasons running. Whether he would have done it again is open to question but he wouldn't have done any worse than HW. All we've done is replaced him with a total novice and it's a gamble that's failed spectacularly. Solihull got a manager with experience at this level (Yates) who then taught his No.2 (Flowers) to the extent that when Yates left, Flowers not only stepped in but stepped the team up! But the key in the first place was Mark Yates’ experience.
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Post by headstone on Dec 27, 2018 12:57:52 GMT
If it will cost the owners even more money to sack HW and appoint someone else, they won't, is my guess. Once the bottom fell out of the 3G4US campaign, leaving no hope of promotion to the EFL unless we ruin the business plan, relegation at some stage became inevitable. And I don't blame the owners if that is their attitude, it is their money they are burning. We have tasted the NL, and it's a bit bitter!
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Post by gromley on Dec 27, 2018 14:32:00 GMT
If it will cost the owners even more money to sack HW and appoint someone else, they won't, is my guess. Once the bottom fell out of the 3G4US campaign, leaving no hope of promotion to the EFL unless we ruin the business plan, relegation at some stage became inevitable. And I don't blame the owners if that is their attitude, it is their money they are burning. We have tasted the NL, and it's a bit bitter! I don't think that's a fair assessment of where the owners are at all.
It's clear with the benefit of hindsight that they made a mistake (or at least took a gamble that didn't pay off) in hiring Harry Wheeler, I don't for one minute doubt their commitment or ambition for the club. (I don't accept that they've given up on 3G being allowed in the EFL either, but that's moot at the moment.)
Personally I think they have very difficult decisions to make now.
I'm sure you're correct that it will cost money to terminate HW's contract at this point and even if they were to do so and get a miracle worker in his place immediately, we would still be odds on to go down imho, even if they fork out even more money to bankroll the new messiah.
I don't know how much of a dent would be put into the clubs finances from demotion to the Conference South (I'm sure we had discussions about this last year, which from memory I think merely confirmed that most of us don't really have a clue), but if the aim in that case would be to bounce back as soon as possible I'm sure that would be pretty costly.
IIRC before our win in the play-offs Terry made the point that if we didn't take the chance then it might be several years before the chance came again. Whilst being a bigger fish in the smaller pond that is NL-South might have a certain appeal , I don't think the stats on clubs getting relegated from the Conference and then returning within a few years are very favourable (I have the stats somewhere but can't find them - It's a pity we don't have any other collectors of pointless stats around these parts!).
So imho it is a very tough call for Terry and Oliver at this stage; over the last 2 1/2 seasons (& of course long before) I think that have pumped in as much cash as they felt they prudently could (& then some) but now they have to consider whether to pump in even more to try to avoid loosing the value of that investment (some might use the term throwing good money after bad!)
So whilst it is certainly true that investing in terminating HW's contract and bankrolling (at least to some degree) a successor would be a 'clear statement of intent', it would also be a gamble.
Frankly I don't see that 'we' have any right to expect that, nor criticise if that is not the path they choose.
I'm sure that if I don't round them off at the pass, someone will come along and suggest that, if only the club would sanction it, we would all be prepared to subscribe to a "12th man fund". With this in mind I would have to remind you to look into why the Elvis End / Genco stand is not called the "Supporters stand".
The owners have made mistakes no doubt - that's entirely human - but lets not forget how lucky we are to have level headed owners who have tried so far to ensure that their massive contribution to the club is sustainable.
Blimey; I've now officially "gone off on one" - that wasn't quite what I started out to write!
Anywa,y the point really is that whilst tempers and emotions are clearly raised, let's keep some perspective and not alienate some people that are really (quite importantly) on our side!
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Post by daveu on Dec 27, 2018 14:43:38 GMT
If it will cost the owners even more money to sack HW and appoint someone else, they won't, is my guess. Once the bottom fell out of the 3G4US campaign, leaving no hope of promotion to the EFL unless we ruin the business plan, relegation at some stage became inevitable. And I don't blame the owners if that is their attitude, it is their money they are burning. We have tasted the NL, and it's a bit bitter! I'm not sure it will cost anything to sack Harry. Wasn't there talk of a review clause in his contract or did I imagine that.
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mekon
Junior Member
Posts: 72
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Post by mekon on Dec 27, 2018 14:49:41 GMT
If it will cost the owners even more money to sack HW and appoint someone else, they won't, is my guess. Once the bottom fell out of the 3G4US campaign, leaving no hope of promotion to the EFL unless we ruin the business plan, relegation at some stage became inevitable. And I don't blame the owners if that is their attitude, it is their money they are burning. We have tasted the NL, and it's a bit bitter! I don't think that's a fair assessment of where the owners are at all. It's clear with the benefit of hindsight that they made a mistake (or at least took a gamble that didn't pay off) in hiring Harry Wheeler, I don't for one minute doubt their commitment or ambition for the club. (I don't accept that they've given up on 3G being allowed in the EFL either, but that's moot at the moment.) Personally I think they have very difficult decisions to make now. I'm sure you're correct that it will cost money to terminate HW's contract at this point and even if they were to do so and get a miracle worker in his place immediately, we would still be odds on to go down imho, even if they fork out even more money to bankroll the new messiah.
I don't know how much of a dent would be put into the clubs finances from demotion to the Conference South (I'm sure we had discussions about this last year, which from memory I think merely confirmed that most of us don't really have a clue), but if the aim in that case would be to bounce back as soon as possible I'm sure that would be pretty costly.
IIRC before our win in the play-offs Terry made the point that if we didn't take the chance then it might be several years before the chance came again. Whilst being a bigger fish in the smaller pond that is NL-South might have a certain appeal , I don't think the stats on clubs getting relegated from the Conference and then returning within a few years are very favourable (I have the stats somewhere but can't find them - It's a pity we don't have any other collectors of pointless stats around these parts!). So imho it is a very tough call for Terry and Oliver at this stage; over the last 2 1/2 seasons (& of course long before) I think that have pumped in as much cash as they felt they prudently could (& then some) but now they have to consider whether to pump in even more to try to avoid loosing the value of that investment (some might use the term throwing good money after bad!) So whilst it is certainly true that investing in terminating HW's contract and bankrolling (at least to some degree) a successor would be a 'clear statement of intent', it would also be a gamble.
Frankly I don't see that 'we' have any right to expect that, nor criticise if that is not the path they choose.
I'm sure that if I don't round them off at the pass, someone will come along and suggest that, if only the club would sanction it, we would all be prepared to subscribe to a "12th man fund". With this in mind I would have to remind you to look into why the Elvis End / Genco stand is not called the "Supporters stand". The owners have made mistakes no doubt - that's entirely human - but lets not forget how lucky we are to have level headed owners who have tried so far to ensure that their massive contribution to the club is sustainable. Blimey; I've now officially "gone off on one" - that wasn't quite what I started out to write! Anywa,y the point really is that whilst tempers and emotions are clearly raised, let's keep some perspective and not alienate some people that are really (quite importantly) on our side!
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Post by jdl on Dec 27, 2018 14:52:02 GMT
Obviously, we don't know the financial repercussions of sacking Harry (although I would be surprised if his contract wasn't designed with just this scenario as a possibility), but the club simply can't afford to have this 'standard' of football going on for the rest of the season.
Whether or not we go down (and I still think we could escape), only the die-hard fans will continue to attend games if Harry stays. I've never missed a game I could attend, but I'm seriously considering not going on New Year's Day if Harry is still here - and I'm a ST holder. Not only can the club not afford the financial hit of collapsing gates (and I fear they could get as low as a few hundred), but they also can't afford the PR hit of being the laughing stock of NL football - which is what we would be if Harry stays and this shit continues. Remember NFU? That's us if this carries on - but without the sympathy.
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mekon
Junior Member
Posts: 72
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Post by mekon on Dec 27, 2018 14:52:48 GMT
If it will cost the owners even more money to sack HW and appoint someone else, they won't, is my guess. Once the bottom fell out of the 3G4US campaign, leaving no hope of promotion to the EFL unless we ruin the business plan, relegation at some stage became inevitable. And I don't blame the owners if that is their attitude, it is their money they are burning. We have tasted the NL, and it's a bit bitter! I don't think that's a fair assessment of where the owners are at all. It's clear with the benefit of hindsight that they made a mistake (or at least took a gamble that didn't pay off) in hiring Harry Wheeler, I don't for one minute doubt their commitment or ambition for the club. (I don't accept that they've given up on 3G being allowed in the EFL either, but that's moot at the moment.) Personally I think they have very difficult decisions to make now. I'm sure you're correct that it will cost money to terminate HW's contract at this point and even if they were to do so and get a miracle worker in his place immediately, we would still be odds on to go down imho, even if they fork out even more money to bankroll the new messiah.
I don't know how much of a dent would be put into the clubs finances from demotion to the Conference South (I'm sure we had discussions about this last year, which from memory I think merely confirmed that most of us don't really have a clue), but if the aim in that case would be to bounce back as soon as possible I'm sure that would be pretty costly.
IIRC before our win in the play-offs Terry made the point that if we didn't take the chance then it might be several years before the chance came again. Whilst being a bigger fish in the smaller pond that is NL-South might have a certain appeal , I don't think the stats on clubs getting relegated from the Conference and then returning within a few years are very favourable (I have the stats somewhere but can't find them - It's a pity we don't have any other collectors of pointless stats around these parts!). So imho it is a very tough call for Terry and Oliver at this stage; over the last 2 1/2 seasons (& of course long before) I think that have pumped in as much cash as they felt they prudently could (& then some) but now they have to consider whether to pump in even more to try to avoid loosing the value of that investment (some might use the term throwing good money after bad!) So whilst it is certainly true that investing in terminating HW's contract and bankrolling (at least to some degree) a successor would be a 'clear statement of intent', it would also be a gamble.
Frankly I don't see that 'we' have any right to expect that, nor criticise if that is not the path they choose.
I'm sure that if I don't round them off at the pass, someone will come along and suggest that, if only the club would sanction it, we would all be prepared to subscribe to a "12th man fund". With this in mind I would have to remind you to look into why the Elvis End / Genco stand is not called the "Supporters stand". The owners have made mistakes no doubt - that's entirely human - but lets not forget how lucky we are to have level headed owners who have tried so far to ensure that their massive contribution to the club is sustainable. Blimey; I've now officially "gone off on one" - that wasn't quite what I started out to write! Anywa,y the point really is that whilst tempers and emotions are clearly raised, let's keep some perspective and not alienate some people that are really (quite importantly) on our side!
Probaly the most sensible and rationale post I have read on this forum in a long while
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Post by 61666 on Dec 27, 2018 15:52:55 GMT
Whatever the owners do, and it is their money after all, nevertheless they have a wider responsibility to the fans, who turn up every other week and put an average of £30k or more in the kitty. Wheeler should go, but on top of that, it would be good to know what the situation actually is. Usually in these situations, the owners give public backing to the manager, only to sack him a couple of weeks later. Not sure we've heard anything in the way of formal statement lately and regardless of whether they are going to stick it out or hand him his P45, it would be good to know.
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Post by jdl on Dec 27, 2018 18:19:33 GMT
They can't possibly support him - we're playing crap and losing, he's lost the dressing room and the fans are practically %100 against him.
I don't think even a win at BW would save him.
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Post by nws on Dec 28, 2018 0:53:01 GMT
Obviously, we don't know the financial repercussions of sacking Harry (although I would be surprised if his contract wasn't designed with just this scenario as a possibility), but the club simply can't afford to have this 'standard' of football going on for the rest of the season. Whether or not we go down (and I still think we could escape), only the die-hard fans will continue to attend games if Harry stays. I've never missed a game I could attend, but I'm seriously considering not going on New Year's Day if Harry is still here - and I'm a ST holder. Not only can the club not afford the financial hit of collapsing gates (and I fear they could get as low as a few hundred), but they also can't afford the PR hit of being the laughing stock of NL football - which is what we would be if Harry stays and this shit continues. Remember NFU? That's us if this carries on - but without the sympathy. Some time ago I said that it would be interesting to see what all the new-found 'maidstone till I die' fans would do when we had a truly bad season and you and others had a right ol' pop. Seems you think I was right all along
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